Are my expectations too high? Creased vintage cards

[conor912]

There are a lot of lazy people out there. Not vindictive, per se, but they don’t t give a shit about taking time to actually inspect a card...especially when they have large inventories like the box sellers. Commons just arent worth the hassle to most people. It easier/cheaper in the long run to issue a few refunds than spend the time doing it right in the first place.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by conor912

There are a lot of lazy people out there. Not vindictive, per se, but they don’t t give a shit about taking time to actually inspect a card...especially when they have large inventories like the box sellers. Commons just arent worth the hassle to most people. It easier/cheaper in the long run to issue a few refunds than spend the time doing it right in the first place.

+1

I hate lazy descriptions. "See the picture to see what you get." I hate that. Very deceptive. I got burned on a Mantle about 10 years ago. No mention that the Mantle was creased. Wish people were more upfront and honest.

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[perezfan]

Any card I receive that's graded EX (or better) and arrives with a crease gets returned immediately. I have had to resort to emailing sellers up-front, to ask if there are any existing creases or surface wrinkles. Even for raw cards graded as high as EXMT. If they fail to reply (which is rather frequent), you can safely assume there's a crease or wrinkle they failed to disclose.

Even the best of scans often are not good enough. You need to ask specifically, if you want to collect crease-free cards. Simply put.... most sellers are LAZY!

The worst (to me) are cards graded PSA 4. The vast majority of eBay Sellers NEVER take the time to describe the card itself. They simply rely on and state the random and variable PSA grade. There's no way to tell if the "4" grade is due to corner wear or a crease that fails to show up (unless you ask before you buy).

Hope this is helpful, and best of luck!

[Econteachert205]

You should expect cards that fit the grade given. As said anything ex or higher shouldn’t have a crease.

[hcv123]

When I sell, I describe all flaws I can see with a card and then offer my grade opinion. If there is a flaw I can see in a graded card, I offer the same in my description. Grading is highly subjective. I agree a card in EX should have no creases - I might describe a card as "a small surface crease, otherwise EX". When buying I just ask the question if the description and or scan are unclear - Are there any creases, paper loss or other flaws?
Many sellers sadly do not describe their cards thoroughly enough.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by hcv123

When I sell, I describe all flaws I can see with a card and then offer my grade opinion. If there is a flaw I can see in a graded card, I offer the same in my description. Grading is highly subjective. I agree a card in EX should have no creases - I might describe a card as "a small surface crease, otherwise EX". When buying I just ask the question if the description and or scan are unclear - Are there any creases, paper loss or other flaws?
Many sellers sadly do not describe their cards thoroughly enough.

Enlarged scans typical are ok. If there is a minor surface wrinkle that you have to hold at exactly a 33% angle under florescent light just to even see it should that be disclosed?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Enlarged scans typical are ok. If there is a minor surface wrinkle that you have to hold at exactly a 33% angle under florescent light just to even see it should that be disclosed?

Of course it should be disclosed. If someone is shelling out good money for a piece of cardboard, they have the right to know what they're getting. If a car has a scratch on it that can only be seen from an angle, is it still not a scratch?

Returns are a big hassle for the buyer and a waste of money and time for the seller.

[Tere1071]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Any card I receive that's graded EX (or better) and arrives with a crease gets returned immediately. I have had to resort to emailing sellers up-front, to ask if there are any existing creases or surface wrinkles. Even for raw cards graded as high as EXMT. If they fail to reply (which is rather frequent), you can safely assume there's a crease or wrinkle they failed to disclose.

Even the best of scans often are not good enough. You need to ask specifically, if you want to collect crease-free cards. Simply put.... most sellers are LAZY!

The worst (to me) are cards graded PSA 4. The vast majority of eBay Sellers NEVER take the time to describe the card itself. They simply rely on and state the random and variable PSA grade. There's no way to tell if the "4" grade is due to corner wear or a crease that fails to show up (unless you ask before you buy).

Hope this is helpful, and best of luck!

With my 53 Bowman set I have been assembling I began with cards in vg to vg/ex condition and at first there weren't any problems. As I got to the last few I needed to finish the set I began to receive cards that had wrinkles and in one case paper loss on the back that wasn't mentioned in the description. I previously mentioned a 53 Berra that was listed as a PSA 4; the card looked nice but up close there were several wrinkles at the top left corner. I wanted to like the card, but I finally decided to send it back and search for another in excellent condition, instead.

I've learned that a number of sellers are very "liberal" in their grading. There's also a certain amount of laziness when a seller depends solely on the posted image of a card, rather than giving some explanation as to its appearance. For the rest of my upgrades, I am going to purchase cards in excellent condition that I can clearly see and receive answers if needed before I make a purchase.

I need the following upgrades in Excellent condition: Williams, Rizzuto, Wilson, Stanky, Marion, Cain, Nuxhall, Pierce, Hodges, Spahn, Easter, Rush, Drews, Boyer, Mitchell, Berra, Michaels, A. Clark and Abrams.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Tere1071

With my 53 Bowman set I have been assembling I began with cards in vg to vg/ex condition and at first there weren't any problems. As I got to the last few I needed to finish the set I began to receive cards that had wrinkles and in one case paper loss on the back that wasn't mentioned in the description. I previously mentioned a 53 Berra that was listed as a PSA 4; the card looked nice but up close there were several wrinkles at the top left corner. I wanted to like the card, but I finally decided to send it back and search for another in excellent condition, instead.

I've learned that a number of sellers are very "liberal" in their grading. There's also a certain amount of laziness when a seller depends solely on the posted image of a card, rather than giving some explanation as to its appearance. For the rest of my upgrades, I am going to purchase cards in excellent condition that I can clearly see and receive answers if needed before I make a purchase.

I need the following upgrades in Excellent condition: Williams, Rizzuto, Wilson, Stanky, Marion, Cain, Nuxhall, Pierce, Hodges, Spahn, Easter, Rush, Drews, Boyer, Mitchell, Berra, Michaels, A. Clark and Abrams.

I'm with you all the way on this...

So frustrating, and seems like 95% of eBay sellers now just rely completely on the scan or the PSA/SGC Grade as the full description, without writing a single thing about the actual card. Very lazy, IMHO...

Their scans rarely show surface wrinkles, and to just say "PSA 3" or "PSA 4" tells you nothing. There are tons of 3s and 4s that are crease-free and just have some honest corner wear. But you'll never know unless the seller takes the obligatory 10 seconds to say so.

That said... I am having an impossible time finding a mid-grade '56 Clemente. The PSA 5s are all way overpriced, and the 4s might or might not have "mystery creases" that you can't see on a screen. Ideally, I'd like to nail down a crease-free example with VG or better corners. You'd think one would be readily available, but the work involved is simply not worth it!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I'm with you all the way on this...

So frustrating, and seems like 95% of eBay sellers now just rely completely on the scan or the PSA/SGC Grade as the full description, without writing a single thing about the actual card. Very lazy, IMHO...

Their scans rarely show surface wrinkles, and to just say "PSA 3" or "PSA 4" tells you nothing. There are tons of 3s and 4s that are crease-free and just have some honest corner wear. But you'll never know unless the seller takes the obligatory 10 seconds to say so.

That said... I am having an impossible time finding a mid-grade '56 Clemente. The PSA 5s are all way overpriced, and the 4s might or might not have "mystery creases" that you can't see on a screen. Ideally, I'd like to nail down a crease-free example with VG or better corners. You'd think one would be readily available, but the work involved is simply not worth it!

+1.
You really have to ask a seller if there are any wrinkles, creases or issues that can't be seen from the picture on ebay.

[jchcollins]

Commonly accepted grading practice before TPG's and going back to at least 1980 if not earlier, holds that "EX" cards should have no creases, or at least not anything resembling a crease on the front of the card. I believe that SGC's standard currently says that a 5 can have a light wrinkle on the front which does not break the surface and does not detract from eye appeal, but in practice it's rare to see that get a 5; many cards like that get lower grades even if they look fairly good and you can't see the wrinkle. I once had a '55 Bowman Kaline in a PSA 5 that had noticeable wrinkling on the front, but otherwise the card was NM-MT+. I guess they bend the rules sometimes. With raw cards, unfortunately you have to find a dealer who is reputable and does not routinely overgrade cards, as so many of them do these days - and especially with vintage. The better advice for anything of substance in midgrade is probably just to buy graded if you like the eye appeal. The vast majority of 5's from a reputable grader will not have a true crease.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Tere1071

With my 53 Bowman set I have been assembling I began with cards in vg to vg/ex condition and at first there weren't any problems. As I got to the last few I needed to finish the set I began to receive cards that had wrinkles and in one case paper loss on the back that wasn't mentioned in the description. I previously mentioned a 53 Berra that was listed as a PSA 4; the card looked nice but up close there were several wrinkles at the top left corner. I wanted to like the card, but I finally decided to send it back and search for another in excellent condition, instead.

I've learned that a number of sellers are very "liberal" in their grading. There's also a certain amount of laziness when a seller depends solely on the posted image of a card, rather than giving some explanation as to its appearance. For the rest of my upgrades, I am going to purchase cards in excellent condition that I can clearly see and receive answers if needed before I make a purchase.

I need the following upgrades in Excellent condition: Williams, Rizzuto, Wilson, Stanky, Marion, Cain, Nuxhall, Pierce, Hodges, Spahn, Easter, Rush, Drews, Boyer, Mitchell, Berra, Michaels, A. Clark and Abrams.

I can probably help you out...

I just recently sold a very nice Berra and Spahn (EX+ and EXMT respectively), so that's a bummer. But I do have a stellar Gil Hodges (SGC 6) and Raw cards of Rizzuto and Nuxhall that are crease-free and would grade at least EXMT.

Shoot me a PM if you're interested in seeing pics, or doing a trade that involves a 1956 Clemente (as described above). Thanks!