Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

olecow · #1 07-09-2020, 10:33 PM

Warren Spahn. Hands down.

RCMcKenzie · #2 07-09-2020, 11:02 PM

Testing...1,2,3...

Tabe · #3 07-09-2020, 11:53 PM

Kershaw has the lowest ERA of any starter in the live ball era. He has a good case.

Koufax was only great with a super-high mound, expanded strike zone, and Dodger Stadium. Look at his Non-Dodger Stadium stats. He has no case.

Lefty Grove dominated for a long time AFTER B being held or of the majors longer than he should have been. He has a great case.

Steve Carlton won 4 CYAs and was generally awesome. He has a great case.

Randy Johnson put up ridiculous numbers for a long time. 5 CYAs but also tanked half a season to force a trade. He has a great case.

My pick would be Lefty Grove.

cardsagain74 · #4 07-10-2020, 12:28 AM

Steve Carlton has no case. His lifetime numbers were the left-handed version of Phil Niekro. Other than his 1972 season, Carlton's Cy Young awards were based on how both guys' best years gave you a 23-10 record pitching for that era's great Phillies teams but a 20-17 record for the Braves then.

Obviously a great pitcher, but not the maybe best of all time lefty caliber of his reputation.

Plus, Randy Johnson's career is clearly superior to Carlton's. A higher lifetime WAR despite pitching more than 1000 fewer innings. Carlton's lifetime ERA is barely better, despite Johnson pitching during the steroid era and half his career in the AL. And Johnson still got to 300 wins in a five-man rotation era.

You can argue Grove, Kershaw, Johnson, maybe Spahn, maybe Plank, maybe a prime Koufax. Obviously it's so tough to compare the different generations.

Oh and as far as Koufax, it's a myth that he may have been so mediocre away from Dodger stadium. 86-46 with a 3.04 ERA and a 1.167 WHIP on the road lifetime. Not too shabby.

brewing · #5 07-10-2020, 07:46 AM

Kershaw is 49.6 innings behind Koufax.
To match Koufax he would have to do the following over his next 49.6 innings.
Lose 13 games
Give up 39 hits and walk 240 batters.
31 of those hits need to be HR's
Give up 96 Earned Runs, resulting in a nifty 17.12 ERA

And he'd still have more wins and strikeouts than Koufax. Keep in mind the difference of eras too. Koufax played in a pitching era and Kershaw in a hitter's era.
Same number of Cy Young Awards. Kershaw has 7 top 5 finishes in the award voting, Koufax has 4.

Maybe we tend to honor the baseball from the past more because we dig vintage baseball cards. But the numbers don't lie, Kershaw is better than the left arm of God.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...ershcl01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...oufasa01.shtml

rats60 · #6 07-10-2020, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brewing

Kershaw is 49.6 innings behind Koufax.
To match Koufax he would have to do the following over his next 49.6 innings.
Lose 13 games
Give up 39 hits and walk 240 batters.
31 of those hits need to be HR's
Give up 96 Earned Runs, resulting in a nifty 17.12 ERA

And he'd still have more wins and strikeouts than Koufax. Keep in mind the difference of eras too. Koufax played in a pitching era and Kershaw in a hitter's era.
Same number of Cy Young Awards. Kershaw has 7 top 5 finishes in the award voting, Koufax has 4.

Maybe we tend to honor the baseball from the past more because we dig vintage baseball cards. But the numbers don't lie, Kershaw is better than the left arm of God.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...ershcl01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...oufasa01.shtml

You forgot pitch 3 no hitters, win 4 WS rings, 2 WS MVPs and somhow allow negative runs to bring his postseason ERA from 4.43 to .95.

Mikehealer · #7 07-10-2020, 08:28 AM

Nice Plank, Ted

brewing · #8 07-10-2020, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

You forgot pitch 3 no hitters, win 4 WS rings, 2 WS MVPs and somhow allow negative runs to bring his postseason ERA from 4.43 to .95.

No I didn't. While no hitters are impressive having them vs not having them isn't that big of a deal to me. Just like championships in a team sport.

Koufax was amazing during the World Series. I never said Koufax wasn't great. Even if Kershaw has been pedestrian like in the playoffs, the far superior regular season performance of over 2200 innings means more to me.

I did forget to leave out his ERA+ which helps highlight the different eras they pitched in.
Kershaw is 157 2nd highest All Time
Koufax is 131

Others mentioned
Grove 148
Randy Johnson 135
Plank 122

Topnotchsy · #9 07-12-2020, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brewing

Kershaw is 49.6 innings behind Koufax.
To match Koufax he would have to do the following over his next 49.6 innings.
Lose 13 games
Give up 39 hits and walk 240 batters.
31 of those hits need to be HR's
Give up 96 Earned Runs, resulting in a nifty 17.12 ERA

And he'd still have more wins and strikeouts than Koufax. Keep in mind the difference of eras too. Koufax played in a pitching era and Kershaw in a hitter's era.
Same number of Cy Young Awards. Kershaw has 7 top 5 finishes in the award voting, Koufax has 4.

Maybe we tend to honor the baseball from the past more because we dig vintage baseball cards. But the numbers don't lie, Kershaw is better than the left arm of God.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...ershcl01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...oufasa01.shtml

That's silly, and not simply as other people have mentioned (because of the Postseason). It's silly because we all know that Koufax's career averages are not spectacular because for the first half of his career, he was mediocre. Koufax wasn't "The Left Arm of God" for his entire career. No one argues that he was. For 5 seasons he was truly spectacular.

That does nothing to take away from what Kershaw has done in his career. I think he deserves the Koufax comparisons. But comparing career totals misses the story with Koufax in my opinion.

Tabe · #10 07-11-2020, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

Oh and as far as Koufax, it's a myth that he may have been so mediocre away from Dodger stadium. 86-46 with a 3.04 ERA and a 1.167 WHIP on the road lifetime. Not too shabby.

The "road" doesn't quite cover things fully. Here's the numbers:

Sandy at Dodger Stadium: 57-15, 715.1 IP, 109 ER, 1.37 ERA
Everywhere else: 108-72, 1609 IP, 604 ER, 3.38 ERA

Now, to be fair, Koufax pitched at LA Coliseum a fair bit and that was horrendous for lefties. He got lit up there - 17-23 with a 4.33 ERA. So let's exclude that.

So now we get: 91-49, 1264 IP, 438 ER, 3.12 ERA. That's good but not exactly out of this world other than the W-L. But that's basically 5 seasons of 18-10 with a 3.12 ERA. Not HOF-level. Heck, one year during Koufax's hot run from 63-66, the entire NL had an ERA of 3.29.

When you add in the fact he has the fewest IP of any starter in the HOF - even Dennis Eckersley, who got in as a reliever, has 900 more innings - the numbers just aren't kind to Koufax.

jgannon · #11 07-11-2020, 08:10 PM

The players who had to hit against Koufax would tell you just how great he was. This conversation of how great he was reminds me of Sam Neill in "Jurassic Park" trying to deal with the kid who doesn't think the velociraptor was anything to be taken seriously.

G1911 · #12 07-11-2020, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

The players who had to hit against Koufax would tell you just how great he was. This conversation of how great he was reminds me of Sam Neill in "Jurassic Park" trying to deal with the kid who doesn't think the velociraptor was anything to be taken seriously.

Koufax is being taken quite seriously. The issue is that no mathematical argument has him coming out on top; to do so relies on emotional arguments like this one that dismiss stats, the old kind or the new kind. Those looking for some subjective metrics to support their conclusions are never going to buy into the Koufax claim

Tabe · #13 07-11-2020, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

The players who had to hit against Koufax would tell you just how great he was.

Well, sure. But they're ignoring all the places and times he wasn't great. They're ignoring all the factors that helped make him great - the unique deadness of Chavez Ravine, the gigantic strike zone that coincided with his best run, the height of the mound, and so on. Yeah, it was basically impossible to hit against him under those conditions. But the numbers show he was good - not great, but good - everywhere else.

thecomebacker · #14 07-11-2020, 11:49 PM

Big Unit, no question. Regular season dominance aside, He put the Diamondbacks on his back and carried them to a World Title against the early 2000’s Yankees. The freakin Diamondbacks!
.....and he basically did what he did his entire career against Juicers.

Vintageclout · #15 07-12-2020, 08:31 PM

1. Grove
2. Kershaw
3. Johnson
4. Carlton
5. Koufax
6. Spahn

Grove - 9 ERA titles is sheer dominance over an extended period of time - no questions asked.

Kershaw - possibly on pace to be the best ever but still falls somewhat short to Grove. His WHIP; K/BB & ERA numbers are incredible.

Johnson - took him a while to figure it out, but when he did, his peak value numbers are top 5-10 of all-time for ALL pitchers

Carlton - great longevity & peak value but a few inexplicable very poor seasons (including 20 losses) place him a notch below Johnson

Koufax - best peak value lefty of all-time but 5 dominating seasons just doesn�t cut it with regard to being the best ever. You can say all you want IF he had longevity he would be the best ever.....true. But, if my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle. �IFs� simply don�t cut it in the world of rankings.

Spahn - VERY underrated. Most southpaw wins of all-time. Issue with Spahn is he could not dominate a lineup at the level of the 5 pitchers above him.

Fred · #16 07-13-2020, 09:32 PM

Kind of difficult to decide on any single lefty pitcher given the different eras in which they played ball. Koufax supporters have a good case for Sandy but something that plays into this should be longevity and dominance. For Koufax, he pitched in 12 seasons but in only less than half of his career could he be considered totally dominant. So, why not pull out the best 5 years of any pitcher and see how it all shakes out. Koufax, an ace? Yes! The best lefty? Debatable.

999Tony · #17 07-14-2020, 11:29 AM

As others gave said, Grove�s four year peak is equal or better than koufax, and his peak and career about twice the length of koufax. Koufax had some great years but Grove was just as dominant and for much longer. Les the league in strikeouts seven straight years, wins several years, complete games three years in a row, even led the league in saves one year. More than twice the war and even bigger individual seasons.

Didn�t just lead in era, also in era plus and fip so he really was that dominant.

Kenmarks · #18 07-15-2020, 01:07 AM

Agree with the consensus that longevity counts in determining the GOAT left-hander. But for me, if it was one game my team needed to win, I chose Koufax to pitch for me (and I am a die-hard Giant fan!!)

1952boyntoncollector · #19 07-15-2020, 09:51 AM

Billy Wagner

Chris-Counts · #20 07-15-2020, 07:58 PM

I still say Grove was better. In fact, when considering that Grove missed several years of his prime due to having his contract owned by the independent Orioles, and had to suffer through the juiced ball era of 1929-30, I consider him a viable candidate for the greatest pitcher who ever lived.

btcarfagno · #21 07-18-2020, 09:09 AM

Koufax was a creature of his home park. Home road splits are insane. It's Waddell for me.

Snapolit1 · #22 07-19-2020, 10:26 AM

10 years is a plenty ling career to say someone is greatest pitcher of all time.

Not 3 or 4 years. 10 Plenty long enough.

bmcnutt · #23 08-03-2020, 07:37 PM

Sandy Koufax, then Randy Johnson.

5-Tool Player · #24 11-11-2021, 09:46 PM

Steve Carlton

Carter08 · #25 11-24-2021, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon

The players who had to hit against Koufax would tell you just how great he was. This conversation of how great he was reminds me of Sam Neill in "Jurassic Park" trying to deal with the kid who doesn't think the velociraptor was anything to be taken seriously.

I hear you but I think there are many that would have said the same about Spahn, Grove, Randy etc. There were 365 plus games where teams couldn�t get the best of Spahn. Far fewer with Koufax, great as he was.

RCMcKenzie · #26 07-10-2020, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Testing...1,2,3...

I posted a 1982 Fleer Fernando Valenzuela last night to check if pics were working. For some reason it disappeared. Not a big deal, just pointing it out for the folks working on the board.

"Strike Out King". Fernando-mania was a big deal in the early eighties...Rob

GaryPassamonte · #27 07-10-2020, 11:42 AM

Warren Spahn won 363 games, most by a modern day pitcher. He also lost 3 years to military service. It's possible he would have won 400 games. He had thirteen 20 win seasons. I realize today's metrics don't value wins, but Spahn was incredible. He wasn't flashy. Maybe that's why he gets so little support.

tjenkins · #28 07-12-2020, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

Warren Spahn won 363 games, most by a modern day pitcher. He also lost 3 years to military service. It's possible he would have won 400 games. He had thirteen 20 win seasons. I realize today's metrics don't value wins, but Spahn was incredible. He wasn't flashy. Maybe that's why he gets so little support.

I have to agree with this. Spahn is easily my choice. Not to take anything away from Koufax but longetity had to bear some weight. You could possibly add 50 more wins in the 3 years Spahn lost to military service. I realize Koufax was dominating in his years played but I like Spahn's overall body of work.

bigred1 · #29 07-12-2020, 09:07 AM

i think this thread has got me thinking more about Spahn, especially with those missed prime years.

luciobar1980 · #30 11-07-2021, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

Warren Spahn won 363 games, most by a modern day pitcher. He also lost 3 years to military service. It's possible he would have won 400 games. He had thirteen 20 win seasons. I realize today's metrics don't value wins, but Spahn was incredible. He wasn't flashy. Maybe that's why he gets so little support.

I agree a lot with this. He's not a "sexy" pick. I don't mean that literally.. he just wasn't a flashy hero type.

Peter_Spaeth · #31 11-07-2021, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luciobar1980

I agree a lot with this. He's not a "sexy" pick. I don't mean that literally.. he just wasn't a flashy hero type.

Other factors against Spahn were a small market mostly not so great team, a very ordinary physical stature and looks, and success based more on relentless consistency and finesse than blowing people away. But especially as was pointed out missing the years he did, a remarkable career. Destined to forever be at or near the top of those underrated lists we do once in a while.

Snowman · #32 11-07-2021, 05:10 PM

Randy Johnson in his prime followed by Koufax. Nobody else is really even close IMO.

clydepepper · #33 07-10-2020, 11:45 AM

43 posts and only three mentioned Warren Spahn!

I have always been a Koufax fan, but he is only the lefty GOAT for Peak Value.

Kershaw, at this point, would be second, IMO, for shorter careers, but Randy Johnson's peak value edges his.

Grove, Spahn and Johnson are tied, in my view, for Career Value Lefty GOAT..

...with Carlton just a tick below.

.

JustinD · #34 07-10-2020, 11:57 AM

Johnson for sure.

What if's don't count in my mind because then I give Johnson Koufax's park and higher mound and he get's more dominant..

6' 10" off a 15" 60's mound?

Ouch.

esd10 · #35 07-11-2020, 06:40 PM

Rube waddell is who I'm going with as the best lefty

tedzan · #36 07-11-2020, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

Nice Plank, Ted

Hello Mike

Great to hear from you....and, thanks for the compliment.

Regarding Plank, it surprises me that I'm the only one here who regards him as the best Left-handed pitcher. And, I base this on what I read in Connie Mack's biography.
Gettysburg Eddie was one cool guy on the mound who combined his mind with his natural talent to achieve a very effective 17-year career. He had 8 seasons in which he
won 20+ games (26 - 6 in 1912 with an ERA = 2.22 was his best year).

Won-Lost 326 - 194
Career ERA = 2.35

In post #15, I named three Lefty's who were the best with respect to the eras they pitched in. But, if I had to choose only one of them, it would certainly be Eddie Plank.

And for those of you, who get carried away with this ambiguous "new-speak" term, "WAR"....Plank's number (91) is up there with the best of the Southpaw's.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Hxcmilkshake · #37 07-17-2020, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I posted a 1982 Fleer Fernando Valenzuela last night to check if pics were working. For some reason it disappeared. Not a big deal, just pointing it out for the folks working on the board.

"Strike Out King". Fernando-mania was a big deal in the early eighties...Rob

"If you have a sombrero, throw it to this guy!!!!" Although in this day and age Vin would probably get in trouble for saying that.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

Koufax32fan · #38 07-17-2020, 10:58 AM

Wow! People have a lot of very strong opinions. Based on my username, you might think you know my vote. This reminds me of the debates over MVP - what does valuable mean? What does best mean?

Let's put it this way. If you told me that you could take any pitcher at his peak and put him on the mound to win one all-important game - Game 7 of the World Series say - there is only one pitcher I would choose and that is Koufax.

If you told me that I could have any pitcher during his peak period to pitch a complete season to save a manager's job and get his team to the World Series, I would choose Koufax.

By the way, that includes lefties and righties (even though I would consider Walter Johnson for the season and Babe Ruth for the game).

If you told me that I could have any left handed pitcher for his career to build a team around, well then I would be considering between Grove, Spahn and Randy Johnson.

For just one pitch, Sidd Finch!

cardsagain74 · #39 07-17-2020, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koufax32fan

If you told me that I could have any pitcher during his peak period to pitch a complete season to save a manager's job and get his team to the World Series, I would choose Koufax.

By the way, that includes lefties and righties (even though I would consider Walter Johnson for the season and Babe Ruth for the game).

Pedro in '99-'00 and Maddux in '94-'95 did things over a two-year stretch that no one else has in the live ball era, and only Bob Gibson's '68 season could match for even one year. There isn't enough mainstream focus on ERA+ or those guys' seasons then (as they pitched in a pinball game) would be remembered with the same reverence as Gibson's 1.12.

It's tough for me to consider much what any pitcher (or hitter, for that matter) did before 1920. Walter Johnson was clearly the best out there during the last decade of the dead ball era, but it was such a different game when everyone was hitting a voit ball from gym class. And his numbers during the 1920s (when he was in his 30s) were very good, but nothing legendary and a clear step below what Grove and plenty of others did when they were the same age in the live ball era.

cammb · #40 07-17-2020, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

Pedro in '99-'00 and Maddux in '94-'95 did things over a two-year stretch that no one else has in the live ball era, and only Bob Gibson's '68 season could match for even one year. There isn't enough mainstream focus on ERA+ or those guys' seasons then (as they pitched in a pinball game) would be remembered with the same reverence as Gibson's 1.12.

It's tough for me to consider much what any pitcher (or hitter, for that matter) did before 1920. Walter Johnson was clearly the best out there during the last decade of the dead ball era, but it was such a different game when everyone was hitting a voit ball from gym class. And his numbers during the 1920s (when he was in his 30s) were very good, but nothing legendary and a clear step below what Grove and plenty of others did when they were the same age in the live ball era.

Excuse me, did you happen to notice the last two years of Koufax??? To say that no one could match what Martinez did n 99-00 is absurd. Koufax crushes him in every category.

thecapeleague · #41 07-15-2020, 10:56 PM

agreed.

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