Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

If Koufax is the same pitcher at home as he was on the road he isn't close to a Hall Of Famer. That's a fact. He would have been a really good pitcher for five years. Not the insane pitcher that his stats show. He was able to turn his video game numbers at home over a five year period into the Hall Of Fame. That's not that much of a knock on him. I think Larry Walker should have been in the Hall a while ago. I think Koufax is an obvious Hall Of Famer and one of the best who ever threw a baseball. We all missed out on a lot when he was physically unable to perform.

It just mystifies me why nobody seems to want to admit that he was a creature of his home park during his prime. As you say, even if you take into account his road numbers and just double them, he is likely the best pitcher in the game over those five years. But he's not "Koufax!!!!!!!". He's just Koufax.

And yes, from 1958 to 1961 his home park hurt his numbers. Actually he had an anomalous 1959 season where he was much better at home, but the rest he was much better on the road. He wasn't the same pitcher he would become after 1961 during this time however. Doubling his road numbers to replace his home numbers he was still fairly ordinary over that period, save for a lot more strikeouts than the ordinary pitcher. It is what he did from 1962-1966 that got him immortal status, and that was largely a home field driven event. That's just a fact. His home field over that period is why his numbers are so insane.

Tom- this is laughable. Why not ask or read comments from former players batting against Koufax.. 3 Cy Youngs in 4 years?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Tom- this is laughable. Why not ask or read comments from former players batting against Koufax.. 3 Cy Youngs in 4 years?

Mathematics is much more instructive than heavily biased accounts of players who did not face the other great left handers. Verifiable facts > anecdotal opinions.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by G1911

Mathematics is much more instructive than heavily biased accounts of players who did not face the other great left handers. Verifiable facts > anecdotal opinions.

Yeah, I'm sure the guys Grove was striking out (as he led the league 7 straight years) said he was a pretty outstanding pitcher too. Are we supposed to stack up quotes from guys who faced Koufax but not Grove, vs guys who faced Grove but not Koufax, and try to figure out who piled on the superlatives to the greatest extent?

As far as Sandy and his Cy Young awards, Grove would've at least equaled, and probably topped him. Let's compare their top 6 season runs:

Grove
1928 24-8 2.58 (led in wins, strikeouts)
1929 20-6 2.81 (led in ERA, strikeouts)
1930 28-5 2.54 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)
1931 31-4 2.06 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)
1932 25-10 2.84 (led in ERA, strikeouts)
1933 24-8 3.20 (led in wins, strikeouts)

Plus 148 more career ML wins, and 111 minor league wins

Koufax
1961 18-13 3.52 (led in strikeouts)
1962 14-7 2.54 (led in ERA)
1963 25-5 1.88 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)
1964 19-5 1.74 (led in ERA)
1965 26-8 2.04 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)
1966 27-9 1.73 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)

Plus 36 more career ML wins

Grove's best season, 1931, beats Sandy's best (1963 or 1966, you choose)
Grove's best 6 year run beat Sandy's
The remainder of Grove's career destroys Sandy's (148 more wins to just 36)

For extra credit, Grove was forced to spend his first 5 years in the minors, where he won another 100+ games.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Yeah, I'm sure the guys Grove was striking out (as he led the league 7 straight years) said he was a pretty outstanding pitcher too. Are we supposed to stack up quotes from guys who faced Koufax but not Grove, vs guys who faced Grove but not Koufax, and try to figure out who piled on the superlatives to the greatest extent?

As far as Sandy and his Cy Young awards, Grove would've at least equaled, and probably topped him. Let's compare their top 6 season runs:

Grove
1928 24-8 2.58 (led in wins, strikeouts)
1929 20-6 2.81 (led in ERA, strikeouts)
1930 28-5 2.54 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)
1931 31-4 2.06 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)
1932 25-10 2.84 (led in ERA, strikeouts)
1933 24-8 3.20 (led in wins, strikeouts)

Plus 148 more career ML wins, and 111 minor league wins

Koufax
1961 18-13 3.52 (led in strikeouts)
1962 14-7 2.54 (led in ERA)
1963 25-5 1.88 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)
1964 19-5 1.74 (led in ERA)
1965 26-8 2.04 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)
1966 27-9 1.73 (led in wins, ERA, strikeouts)

Plus 36 more career ML wins

Grove's best season, 1931, beats Sandy's best (1963 or 1966, you choose)
Grove's best 6 year run beat Sandy's
The remainder of Grove's career destroys Sandy's (148 more wins to just 36)

For extra credit, Grove was forced to spend his first 5 years in the minors, where he won another 100+ games.

Yeah, but Grove had higher raw ERA's, and we are pretending that park affects and low-run environments are somehow irrelevant for Koufax

[rats60]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yeah, but Grove had higher raw ERA's, and we are pretending that park affects and low-run environments are somehow irrelevant for Koufax

Low run environment is irrelevant when caused by superior pitching. Same for park affect when you choose to ignore Koufax's 4 years in the LA Coliseum.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by rats60

Low run environment is irrelevant when caused by superior pitching. Same for park affect when you choose to ignore Koufax's 4 years in the LA Coliseum.

The only sensible way to look at ERA is to compare a pitcher to his peers. That accounts for general trends in ballparks, juiced baseballs, mound height, league expansion, etc.

Koufax led the league in ERA 5 times. Pretty impressive. Grove led the league in ERA 9 times. More impressive.

You can't win these arguments, Koufax vs Grove:
Best season - Grove's 1931 is insane. The 3 guys to win 30 games since 1920 are Grove (31 in 1931), Dean (30 in 1934), and McLain (31 in 1968.) Despite Grove and Dean doing it in a 154 game season, and players since 1961 having 8 more games, it hasn't been done in the last 50+ years.

Best run of 6 consecutive seasons: Grove, see above.

Career:
ERA titles: Koufax 5, Grove 9
Wins: Koufax 165, Grove 300
Win percentage: Koufax 65%, Grove 68% (highest among 300 game winners and eighth best overall).

Short term (one season), Grove.
Best years (6 season run), Grove.
Career, Grove.

We remember Koufax. Many of us saw him in his prime. He is a very popular player and fellow.

Grove was better, period.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The only sensible way to look at ERA is to compare a pitcher to his peers. That accounts for general trends in ballparks, juiced baseballs, mound height, league expansion, etc.

Koufax led the league in ERA 5 times. Pretty impressive. Grove led the league in ERA 9 times. More impressive.

You can't win these arguments, Koufax vs Grove:
Best season - Grove's 1931 is insane. The 3 guys to win 30 games since 1920 are Grove (31 in 1931), Dean (30 in 1934), and McLain (31 in 1968.) Despite Grove and Dean doing it in a 154 game season, and players since 1961 having 8 more games, it hasn't been done in the last 50+ years.

Best run of 6 consecutive seasons: Grove, see above.

Career:
ERA titles: Koufax 5, Grove 9
Wins: Koufax 165, Grove 300
Win percentage: Koufax 65%, Grove 68% (highest among 300 game winners and eighth best overall).

Short term (one season), Grove.
Best years (6 season run), Grove.
Career, Grove.

We remember Koufax. Many of us saw him in his prime. He is a very popular player and fellow.

Grove was better, period.

This is your opinion and I disagree with it. Dominating a weak pitching era doesn't make someone better than a pitcher who dominates one of the strongest pitching eras. Wins are not a good metric to use to compare pitchers. I have presented evidence in this thread that Koufax lacked the run support that Grove received. Koufax should have won 30+ games both in 1963 and 1966. Grove's 31 wins were a matter of luck. He won 4 games where he gave up 4+ runs. That is a poor pitching performance under any circumstance, but the A's powerful offense bailed him out. He also won 4 in relief including a 3 inning relief appearance where the A's gave him the lead in the tenth and Grove blew it only to have the A's to score twice in eleventh.

Koufax had 2 or 3 seasons better than Grove's best. Koufax's 6 year run from 1961-1966 was better than Grove's, ERA, WHIP, FIP, K/9, no hitters, etc. Even Koufax's career numbers are better including counting stats like shutouts and strikeouts despite Koufax retiring at 30. Grove just pitched for stronger offensive team over a long period of time resulting in more wins. These are just opinions, but I don't judge a pitcher by wins.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by G1911

Mathematics is much more instructive than heavily biased accounts of players who did not face the other great left handers. Verifiable facts > anecdotal opinions.

Mathematics support Koufax as the greatest lefty ever too.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Tom- this is laughable. Why not ask or read comments from former players batting against Koufax.. 3 Cy Youngs in 4 years?

HOME. FIELD.

Larry Walker was a similar player with similar video game numbers at home for 6 of his 8 years in Colorado. Yet noone looks at him as one of the greatest left handed hitters of all time. Why? Everyone talks about how his home park affected his numbers. NOONE talks about that with Koufax, but it is just as true.