Looking for Images of T226 Red Suns (Driscoll, Gans, Jeannette and Langford

Tao_Moko · #1 08-06-2020, 10:07 AM

I've tinkered with T226 for about a decade and think there are certainly other SP's though not an abundance of any. Maybe I've seen Cross, Murphy and Sullivan more which could be completely coincidental. I always assumed that they were distributed along with T211 but that would have to be verified. If they were then they seem to be primarily if not exclusively distributed in the South. However, if this is truly the pack then they could have distributed in other regions. I've not seen Jeannette or Langford that I'm aware of. Bull West another I think might be more of an SP. According to Boxrec.com there's no Bull West mentioned so I'm not sure if he's a Bill, or other name from that era which is a short list. No appearance of any super prints.

G1911 · #2 08-06-2020, 03:39 PM

Bull West is Billy West - it's the same image of Billy used on his T218.

EDIT: Disclaimer that this is not my card, just a scan I saved from somewhere for research

Tao_Moko · #3 08-06-2020, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Bull West is Billy West - it's the same image of Billy used on his T218.

EDIT: Disclaimer that this is not my card, just a scan I saved from somewhere for research

Well that was easy. Any thoughts on West being any tougher than the others?

G1911 · #4 08-06-2020, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

Well that was easy. Any thoughts on West being any tougher than the others?

I think I've only seen three West's? The Sullivans using a different crop of the same/almost the same photo makes them appear extra common. Gannon, Brown, Baldwin, Battling Nelson, Harry Stone may be less common. The cards are all so tough that it may be random chance giving this appearance though, and I'm sure others will differ here.

The baseball series was probably printed before mid-1910, as it is missing players from the Chattanooga club that played their first season in 1910. All other teams in the Southern Association are represented. The boxing series could be before or after that date. I would guess both are late 1909 or early 1910 issues, presumably one was issued and then the other instead of being concurrent, based on the series labelling. The baseball cards exist in greater numbers, I think.

Exhibitman · #5 08-08-2020, 09:37 PM

The boxing set is a 1910 issue. The Jeffries image:

is based on a post-training portrait of Jeff ca. June 1910.

The boxing cards have definite levels of scarcity. The four black fighters are rare, whether short printed or not saved is impossible to say, but anyone I know who has assembled the set has had those as the roughest to find.

I don't know the baseball set (i know of it but don't follow it) so I don't know how tough the boxing issue is in comparison. My purely unscientific observation is that the issue is scarce: you can find a type card pretty readily but finding a specific fighter may be a challenge and the black guys are very, very hard to find at all.

G1911 · #6 08-09-2020, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The boxing set is a 1910 issue. The Jeffries image:

is based on a post-training portrait of Jeff ca. June 1910.

The boxing cards have definite levels of scarcity. The four black fighters are rare, whether short printed or not saved is impossible to say, but anyone I know who has assembled the set has had those as the roughest to find.

I don't know the baseball set (i know of it but don't follow it) so I don't know how tough the boxing issue is in comparison. My purely unscientific observation is that the issue is scarce: you can find a type card pretty readily but finding a specific fighter may be a challenge and the black guys are very, very hard to find at all.

Thanks for this, that would strongly suggest the baseball set was issued first then, if the boxing must be a late 1910 or later issue.

The Baseball set of 75 does not appear to have SP cards within it, as far as I have seen. The players who appeared in T206 are more commonly collected, but I don�t think exist in lesser quantity.

The boxing cards seem to be in abnormally great condition. The % of examples that appear to be in VG/EX-Mint seems, unscientifically, to be unusually high from what comes to market. There�s quite a few slabbed 6+ examples for a southern (Louisiana?) regional from 1910. Makes me wonder if many of these came from one source and that�s why some cards are extra difficult?

I don�t think it is likely that most of the collectors of this set in c. 1910 were just racists who threw images of blacks away, as this effect is seen in 0 other sports or non-sports sets of the period. If this was the reason, it should be reflected elsewhere and is not.

The reason is probably lost to time, as the evidence suggests it is not this, it is not likely to be the set size (American Lithography was set up to produce sets in multiples of 25, even if we still have a poor understanding of the sheet layouts), etc.

It�s possible the effect is partly, though I suspect not entirely, that cards of black fighters from this period are more popular than cards of similarly talented white fighters today (check the sold prices). Jack Johnson�s 2 cards are the most commonly seen T218, but his rare Tolstoi back very rarely comes to market compared to most of the others. The tougher material of these guys are more collected, and some are �stuck� in long term collections, I think.

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