T206 Black vs Brown Lenox

MVSNYC · #1 08-07-2020, 04:44 PM

Would also love to hear more theories about Brown Lenox. (Calling Ted Z).

(Ryan, we know of 3 confirmed McQuillans, right? You think there's 4 or 5?)

Here's mine...

Rhotchkiss · #2 08-07-2020, 05:10 PM

Sean, lets see pics of the Brown and Black Merkle (we know there are two of the Brown Merkle)

PSA has 3 - my 1.5, your A, and the A that sold last night (Hi Jeff, welcome to the club). SGC pop report shows 2 -- both A's. Is it possible that both of SGC's A's have been crossed to PSA, sure, and certainly 1. But maybe not. So the pop reports show 5. Also, there are 3 McQuillans. I dont know of any other player with more than 2 known examples, so I figure there could be 4+

sb1 · #3 08-07-2020, 05:57 PM

I used to own a Chase Trophy Brown, very low grade, not sure if it's the same one as Jeff has.

MVSNYC · #4 08-07-2020, 06:22 PM

Ryan, did you mean you think McQuillan is 4/5, or 3? Your reply confused me a bit.

Rhotchkiss · #5 08-07-2020, 06:30 PM

The combined pop report of PSA and SGC shows 5 total. That does NOT mean there are 5 out there -- either company could have mislabeled one or someone could have crossed an SGC to a PSA, or vice versa. But the combined pop report shows 5.

I have seen 3 - yours, mine and the one last night (and yes, yours is an SGC), which means there may be at least two more A's out there, one PSA and one SGC.

MVSNYC · #6 08-07-2020, 07:11 PM

Gotcha. Clear now!

Let�s see more Brown Lenox�s in this thread!

tedzan · #7 08-07-2020, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Would also love to hear more theories about Brown Lenox. (Calling Ted Z).

(Ryan, we know of 3 confirmed McQuillans, right? You think there's 4 or 5?)

Here's mine...

OK Mike, here goes my theories on the Brown LENOX cards......

The timeline of the printing of these Group B subjects with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT backs was Jan - Feb 1911. This exact timeline coincides with the printing
of the T80 (Military Men) cards. Shown below, the T80 cards were printed with CAIRO MONOPOL, LENOX, OLD MILL, TOLSTOI, and UZIT backs.

To date, 25 brown LENOX cards are confirmed. If my theory proves true, I predict that 11 (or 12) more T206 cards may eventually be discovered with the brown LENOX backs.
Exactly 19 subjects of the 25 brown LENOX cards are from the 350/460 series, and 6 subjects are from the 460-only series......

T206 350/460 series....Group B (Brown LENOX candidates)

350/460 series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

The 6 brown LENOX cards from the 460-only series are from the same group of 9 subjects that are the only confirmed PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 cards in this series.

460-only series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I expect these 3 subjects from the 460-only series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs......

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)

Now, for the connection between the T80 cards and the T206 Brown LENOX cards......

So, here is my hypothesis: The printer at American Lithographic failed to switch from the brown ink after press runs of T80 CAIRO MONOPOL backs to black ink prior to starting
a press run of T206 LENOX backs. Apparently, this mistake was caught quickly, which would explain why very few T206 brown LENOX examples exist.
Instead of QA discarding these brown LENOX cards, the sheets were factory-cut, and these brown LENOX cards were shipped along with the black LENOX cards to Factory #30.
And, inserted into LENOX cigarette packs.

Incidentally, we have documented evidence from American Lithographic's records instructing Factory #30 (NYC) to insert a T206 LENOX card and a T80 LENOX card in the same
pack of LENOX Cigarettes. How do you like that ?

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

MVSNYC · #8 08-07-2020, 08:30 PM

Hi Ted, very cool theory, and I'm sure very likely the case!

One comment- the Cairo Monopol ink doesn't look very brown; almost black actually. Is it just that scan? Is it more brown in real life?

Thanks!

Rhotchkiss · #9 08-07-2020, 08:41 PM

The brown Lenox ink is darker than brown old mill and brown Hindu (I think the same ink), I think similar to the T80 Lenox and Cairo Monopol

tedzan · #10 08-07-2020, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Hi Ted, very cool theory, and I'm sure very likely the case!

One comment- the Cairo Monopol ink doesn't look very brown; almost black actually. Is it just that scan? Is it more brown in real life?

Thanks!

Mike

I have had T80 Cairo Monopol cards with a lighter Brown appearance than the one I have in this scan.
However, the other factor to consider is the "boldness" of the lettering of the "Cairo Monopol" brand name,
which has the effect of making it look darker. Whereas the thinner lettering of......
"CIGARETTES
MILITARY
SERIES
ASSORTED SUBJECTS "......appears as a lighter brown script similar to the narrower T206 brown LENOX lettering.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Jobu · #11 08-07-2020, 11:51 PM

This is not my card, but it looks like it is unconfirmed. PSA doesn't call it brown, but I think it is.

tedzan · #12 08-08-2020, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobu

This is not my card, but it looks like it is unconfirmed. PSA doesn't call it brown, but I think it is.

Hi Bryan

The grader is colored-blind"....you and I are not

It is definitely a Brown LENOX. These LENOX backs vary in their shades of brown.

I have added Crawford (bat) to my confirmed list.

Thanks for posting this card.

350/460 series subjects confirmed with Brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

T206 350/460 series....Group B (Brown LENOX candidates)

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

tedzan · #13 08-08-2020, 09:10 AM

Reprising the Brown LENOX cards from the T206 460-only series.

460-only series subjects confirmed with Brown LENOX backs.......

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

According to my theory, there are 3 more subjects from the 460-only series,
which I expect will eventually be found with Brown LENOX backs......

Schlei (batting)

Schaefer (Washington)

Seymour (portrait)

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Maculay1979 · #14 06-18-2021, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobu

This is not my card, but it looks like it is unconfirmed. PSA doesn't call it brown, but I think it is.

From the prior post it looks like this same card was relabeled as black with PSA

E206-A907-70-C0-43-DF-927-B-D68-D46-C7-B2-AD

MVSNYC · #15 08-08-2020, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Mike

I have had T80 Cairo Monopol cards with a lighter Brown appearance than the one I have in this scan.
However, the other factor to consider is the "boldness" of the lettering of the "Cairo Monopol" brand name,
which has the effect of making it look darker. Whereas the thinner lettering of......
"CIGARETTES
MILITARY
SERIES
ASSORTED SUBJECTS "......appears as a lighter brown script similar to the narrower T206 brown LENOX lettering.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, I see what you mean, thanks!

Very cool thread!

mrvster · #16 08-10-2020, 02:39 PM

Yes! the yellow browns would fall under that grouping correct....

T206RESOURCE lists red cobb brown lenox as a possible, but not confirmed

tedzan · #17 08-10-2020, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvster

Ted
Yes! the yellow browns would fall under that grouping correct....

T206RESOURCE lists red cobb brown lenox as a possible, but not confirmed

Johnny, ole buddy

Next time check-out my T206 REFERENCE thread (posts #8 and 171) and you will get the true scoop.

T206resource is mis-leading T206 collectors by stating a red Cobb is possible with a brown LENOX back.

I'm certain that it does not exist, that I will offer anyone one of these crisp $100 who finds an authentic
brown LENOX red Cobb.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Pat R · #18 08-07-2020, 08:51 PM

I have been keeping track of and doing research on the Brown Lenox
for several years now. I started a couple of threads on them but no one replied in any of them here's one from 5 years ago
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ighlight=Lenox

There are four McQillans that I know of

The one that sold last night in Heritage was previously in an SGC holder
McQuillan 2.jpg
McQuillan 2b.jpg

this is the one Ryan has now
McQuillan 1.jpg

This is the one Michael has now
Mcquillan SGC A.jpg
and this is the fourth one
McQuillan 4.jpg

MVSNYC · #19 08-07-2020, 09:05 PM

Hi Patrick, really cool research and scans, thanks for posting.

Pat R · #20 08-08-2020, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

OK Mike, here goes my theories on the Brown LENOX cards......

The timeline of the printing of these Group B subjects with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT backs was Jan - Feb 1911. This exact timeline coincides with the printing
of the T80 (Military Men) cards. Shown below, the T80 cards were printed with CAIRO MONOPOL, LENOX, OLD MILL, TOLSTOI, and UZIT backs.

To date, 25 brown LENOX cards are confirmed. If my theory proves true, I predict that 11 (or 12) more T206 cards may eventually be discovered with the brown LENOX backs.
Exactly 19 subjects of the 25 brown LENOX cards are from the 350/460 series, and 6 subjects are from the 460-only series......

T206 350/460 series....Group B (Brown LENOX candidates)

350/460 series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

The 6 brown LENOX cards from the 460-only series are from the same group of 9 subjects that are the only confirmed PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 cards in this series.

460-only series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I expect these 3 subjects from the 460-only series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs......

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)

Now, for the connection between the T80 cards and the T206 Brown LENOX cards......

So, here is my hypothesis: The printer at American Lithographic failed to switch from the brown ink after press runs of T80 CAIRO MONOPOL backs to black ink prior to starting
a press run of T206 LENOX backs. Apparently, this mistake was caught quickly, which would explain why very few T206 brown LENOX examples exist.
Instead of QA discarding these brown LENOX cards, the sheets were factory-cut, and these brown LENOX cards were shipped along with the black LENOX cards to Factory #30.
And, inserted into LENOX cigarette packs.

Incidentally, we have documented evidence from American Lithographic's records instructing Factory #30 (NYC) to insert a T206 LENOX card and a T80 LENOX card in the same
pack of LENOX Cigarettes. How do you like that ?

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Hey Ted,

According to the Lenox ledger page the T80's and T206's were not inserted
in packs together in the Lenox brands.

Tom posted a fantastic pdf file of the journal in this thread
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=282997

The Lenox page says they "discontinued packing military pictures 10/14/10
and began packing baseball pictures Oct.15/10 1 to each box of 10"

tedzan · #21 08-08-2020, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hey Ted,

According to the Lenox ledger page the T80's and T206's were not inserted
in packs together in the Lenox brands.

Tom posted a fantastic pdf file of the journal in this thread
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=282997

The Lenox page says they "discontinued packing military pictures 10/14/10
and began packing baseball pictures Oct.15/10 1 to each box of 10"

Hey Pat

For starters, check-out this Net54 post from Mar 2009. There are more confirmations (throughout Net54) regarding T80's paired with T206's during the timeline of Jan-Feb 1911.
One of these other ATC ledgers instruct Factory #30 to pair T80's and T206's in LENOX cigarette packs. I don't have the time, currently, to search into this stuff.

You are good at researching, why don't you find them and post them if you will, so we will see which of us is correct on this matter ?

Net54 post March 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archive

Posted By: Jeff S.

These letters were auctioned through Mastronet back on Apr. 11th, 2002 - basically notifying the recipient that American Tobacco was discontinuing the production of Tolstoi and Uzit T206's, and beginning to insert a "Military series". Interesting that the letters mention simultaneous insertion of both a baseball and military picture in each package of cigarettes (until the baseball series ran out I assume). Any idea what the final price was for these pieces? - I couldn't find anything through the Mastro back door.

PS - apologies for using an antiquated scanner...

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Pat R · #22 08-08-2020, 02:28 PM

Hey Ted,

I think you're correct that T206's and T80's were inserted together in
some brands but according to the ledger page Lenox wasn't one of them.

What I quoted was from the Lenox page here it is

tedzan · #23 08-08-2020, 03:19 PM

Patrick

We have a problem here comparing "apples vs oranges". At first, I was puzzled by the timeline you noted (10/14/1910). Now, I know why.

Your scan shows a T79 card (white-bordered) Military Series. The T80 Military Series (gold-bordered) which I am referring to, was printed
and issued at the beginning of 1911.

And, that timeline coincides with the tail-end of the T206 production, which included AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT cards.

When I get a chance, I will try to find the ATC record(s) which details my contention regarding the T80 cards paired with T206 cards.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Rhotchkiss · #24 08-08-2020, 03:56 PM

Lets see some Lenox!

Frank Chance is my only other black lenox (besides Marquard).

But I do have some browns... Maybe its the scans, but the brown seems to come in different shades; I will have to pull them and look at them in hand/person when I get back to Maryland.

Ted/Pat - you guys think the ink-shade differs from back to back?

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