Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein

68Hawk · #1 09-04-2020, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

The when and why of an alteration don't matter. That the alteration did happen does.

Old cards, yes, I'm very confident I could spot nearly all alterations.
There are people skilled enough that their work would be very hard to detect. The point would be that PSA has multiple people, some very experienced. They also supposedly have a very nice piece of equipment that can allow viewing the card under various forms of light shown from different angles. Since it costs about 60K I don't have one. Maybe I should ask for theirs, since they don't seem to use it.

It's not about making perfect the enemy of good. It's about a company that calls themselves experts living up to their own claims. And taking responsibility for their mistakes instead of reholdering them with new serial numbers and denying they were wrong even when shown photos of the same card before and after altering. (SGC too. And probably Beckett)

Do I have graded cards? -Yes, from all three major companies, and a couple others.
have I had my own cards graded? - Yes, all by SGC.
Did I miss things about any of those? -Yes, for a variety of reasons. Only one alteration, which was a surprise as I bought the card around 1978-80 from a reputable dealer. Another was a last minute choice to get to the number of cards for a special. far too hasty, just glanced and said "oh ok, that's a nice one"
But, I'm not being paid to spot those things, the grading companies are.

On older cards I'm very confident, slightly less so on newer cards. The size tolerances are a misleading thing for many sets. It really depends on how they were cut.
A lot of modern cards are actually die cut and should have no variance in size.
Some sets will be hellish for grading companies in the future, most modern Gypsy Queens were apparently die cut in panels then cut in a paper cutter the rest of the way. So right out of the pack they have two different proper edge qualities on the same card. As for as I know, nobody has cataloged that in any way. I collected them until a couple years ago, and haven't even tried yet (Or completed the sets.) How will they handle it when every card in the set appears trimmed?
The sheer number of uncataloged oddities that affect entire modern sets or large portions of sets is amazing.

If I had that sort of money, yes, I'd put up my own cash against yours on pretty much any card from before about 1992. And on many cards made after that.

Steve, I think you're missing my point....I'm not questioning your hobby knowledge or ability to detect many alterations, though I think you underestimate the divergence of opinion to yours when doing so.
I just don't expect a fleet of Steve B's working for $12/hr in the grading offices.

I think the issue at hand is your expectation of what a grading company is, what it promises or doesn't, and whether it is beholden to meet particular expectations.

I own a 2014 Mercedes E350. When I get it serviced, the likelihood is that the tech who runs diagnostics knows how to use the machine that runs the testing and has a bare minimum of tools knowledge. For most work in and out of the Mercedes service shop it is sufficient to get him round most issues. Within the shop there will be a couple more skilled mechanics, and hopefully at the dealership at least one master mechanic. Each draws different wages, and when different mechanical issues arise expertise up the line can be drawn.

MY expectation of a grading company is of an entry level tech who knows how to use the basic machines, applies a standard set of testing to maintain my car, and keep me moving on my way.
YOUR expectation of a grading company is for master mechanics versed heavily in how the vehicle has been built and operates to give care to your 2014 E350 and to never miss what should be obvious with all that accumulated industry lore.

I look for true hobby knowledge here and amongst friends who know more about cards than most. They have given considerable years and innumerable hours to the pursuit because of love and passion for the hobby.

I look to grading companies to do some basic assessment so that I am not shocked or disappointed when a card arrives, ostensibly in a condition not as the seller has described. The grading company steps in between us and applies 10 minutes max of work into investigating just a few of the most important criteria, but hopefully with enough accuracy to grease the trade.

It's not like I don't see the problems you do.
It's just that I look at the volume, the time alloted, the fee associated, the overall experience, and feel it approximates what I expect.
I hate the mistakes, abhor the dishonesty that is suggested to be happening between some companies involved, and enjoy justice being meted out.

But I don't think the whole hobby is f#*@+d because of grading, or that the problems are so overwhelming I can't go about my own collecting.

Eat at enough Subways and someone will make you a sandwich that makes you sick. Overall, the company puts a lot of food in peoples stomaches at reasonable prices so they're doing their job OK....

That's how I feel about grading. It's mostly doing its job IMO.

SGC/Beckett/PSA, yes they likely talk up their expertise to give confidence to their customers. That doesn't bother me too much.

What each company really needs is a small division called 'Misses', where any problem card/problem assessment reaches a more seasoned tech who has a commitment to correcting the issue, and for the companies to be ok with transparency around those issues. There could even be a section of their websites just for that, illustrating in large pic format and with significant description the issues identified with the card that were originally missed, and for it to be seen as an educational tool for the hobby.

Problem is this country is such a litigous one, even here on this forum you find such immature responses where tar and feather is demanded and wholesale badmouthing of grading occurs with the seeming desire to just bring the whole thing down.....
These companies are better off financially just ignoring or downplaying the failure rate because it's clientele isn't mature enough to accept that perfection is unattainable and you get what you pay for.

I'm all for you starting up your own grading company Steve, problem will lie in who you employ.

steve B · #2 09-05-2020, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

I'm all for you starting up your own grading company Steve, problem will lie in who you employ.

I think generally the companies do an ok job.
I don't worry too much about the actual grade, no matter what grade it gets some percentage of people will think it's wrong. I was never much into centering, and didn't like that cards that were very well preserved got downgraded because the centering was off.
I've sort of come around...

And failures are expected occasionally

I'm really not impressed with the sheer number of failures they've had with cards graded by particular customers. Some of what came out was probably in the range of 80% missed alterations in a batch. To me that at best points to someone who shouldn't be doing it. At worst, someone who is part of the problem.

One of the kids I worked with at the bicycle shop (who was a fantastic mechanic even at 14) has gone on to become an auto mechanic for range rover. At high end places these days most of the mechanics are excellent and have multiple certifications plus factory training. I worked for a while for a Chrysler dealer in the late 80's early 90's and things were pretty much the way you describe, except everyone was responsible for their own work. That led to variable speed and quality of work. Ok... ish... for Chrysler Plymouth, maybe not for Mercedes.

In my less sane moments I have considered doing some sort of grading, mostly as just myself. Patterned after stamp expertisers. In the US, it's similar to card grading, three main companies, and a handful of specialized groups.
Europe however has individual experts or groups that handle specific areas.
I don't think any of them do grades, they all pretty much refuse to have specified turn around times. And only recently have moved away from simply marking the stamp and towards a certificate with a photo on it.
One company did/does do slabs... not all that successfully, as they're fighting 180 years of keeping stamps in albums.
I've talked to a couple guys that do that as experts for one company or another, and the stuff they just know is amazing. like last time I learned that one way of telling the 1879 paper from the earlier paper is that one reacts just slightly to shortwave UV... I've never seen that in any book.

But I have a few other projects, and I'm hopelessly disorganized. Having people send me batches of expensive cards would be a very bad idea.

benjulmag · #3 09-06-2020, 03:30 AM

PSA to me bears a lot of similarities to Coaches Corner. The latter as one will recall defended its authentication of bogus autographs by saying all they were doing were rendering good faith opinions.

IMO, PSA's opinions as manifested by the high grades (e.g., 8s and higher) it has given certain vintage issues (e.g., T206s) is no different than the opinions Coaches Corner has given to the items it authenticates. In regard to the latter, my understanding is that the overwhelming consensus of experienced hobbyists is that the people who run Coaches Corner cannot in reality be so stupid, and that to the contrary they are engaging in out and out fraud.

How does this relate to PSA? IMO the overwhelming consensus of those of us who (i) have been around before cards had real value, (ii) attended the card shows of that era, (iii) know how cards were distributed and collected, and (iv) have seen/heard of the condition of the cards in raw finds that have surfaced over the years believe that no competent grading company can be so stupid as to believe many of the cards it assigns high grades to can possibly be unaltered when submitted for grading.

So, what is it? Are the people at PSA overseeing those graders who are churning out those high grades for those cards, and in the process perpetuating the economic viability of the card registry, really that stupid, or is it something else?

Leon · #4 09-06-2020, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

PSA to me bears a lot of similarities to Coaches Corner. The latter as one will recall defended its authentication of bogus autographs by saying all they were doing were rendering good faith opinions.

IMO, PSA's opinions as manifested by the high grades (e.g., 8s and higher) it has given certain vintage issues (e.g., T206s) is no different than the opinions Coaches Corner has given to the items it authenticates. In regard to the latter, my understanding is that the overwhelming consensus of experienced hobbyists is that the people who run Coaches Corner cannot in reality be so stupid, and that to the contrary they are engaging in out and out fraud.

How does this relate to PSA? IMO the overwhelming consensus of those of us who (i) have been around before cards had real value, (ii) attended the card shows of that era, (iii) know how cards were distributed and collected, and (iv) have seen/heard of the condition of the cards in raw finds that have surfaced over the years believe that no competent grading company can be so stupid as to believe many of the cards it assigns high grades to can possibly be unaltered when submitted for grading.

So, what is it? Are the people at PSA overseeing those graders who are churning out those high grades for those cards, and in the process perpetuating the economic viability of the card registry, really that stupid, or is it something else?

You aren't giving stupidity it's fair credence.

perezfan · #5 09-06-2020, 01:04 PM

�So, what is it? Are the people at PSA overseeing those graders who are churning out those high grades for those cards, and in the process perpetuating the economic viability of the card registry, really that stupid, or is it something else?�

Obviously it�s more �something else� than stupid. A good beginning would be to stop taking in cards from known trimmers and doctors.

Yet PSA�s list of �Recommended Dealers� still endorses Dennis Pevarnick and other known card doctors. If PSA really wanted to engage in cleaning things up, they would take a few obvious proactive steps.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1355413&page=3

swarmee · #6 05-15-2022, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

�So, what is it? Are the people at PSA overseeing those graders who are churning out those high grades for those cards, and in the process perpetuating the economic viability of the card registry, really that stupid, or is it something else?�

Obviously it�s more �something else� than stupid. A good beginning would be to stop taking in cards from known trimmers and doctors.

Yet PSA�s list of �Recommended Dealers� still endorses Dennis Pevarnick and other known card doctors. If PSA really wanted to engage in cleaning things up, they would take a few obvious proactive steps.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1355413&page=3

Pevarnick is still trimming, still grading through PSA, and still selling cards for thousands through major auction houses.
And now PSA is decertifying the cert numbers from the slabs the cards were originally in. Pretty galling for the "Never get cheated!" market leader.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1355413&page=4

Not a whole lot different with the new private ownership group, or Mr. Genamint. They have been assimilated by the Borg. (Not really a Trekkie; did I get that joke right?)

SAllen2556 · #7 05-15-2022, 08:40 AM

The sports collectibles industry is one that requires no education or licensure to participate, has no regulation, has no governing body to oversee even its largest sellers and dealers, has no real penalties for getting caught committing fraud, garners little to no interest from federal authorities or any other policing agency, and has customers who tend to look the other way even when outlandish criminal acts are committed.

Either accept it or take up another hobby because this one has always been full of shady people and probably always will. I hear woodworking is very rewarding.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 05-15-2022, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

Pevarnick is still trimming, still grading through PSA, and still selling cards for thousands through major auction houses.
And now PSA is decertifying the cert numbers from the slabs the cards were originally in. Pretty galling for the "Never get cheated!" market leader.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1355413&page=4

Not a whole lot different with the new private ownership group, or Mr. Genamint. They have been assimilated by the Borg. (Not really a Trekkie; did I get that joke right?)

Pete Townsend.

Lorewalker · #9 05-15-2022, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

And now PSA is decertifying the cert numbers from the slabs the cards were originally in.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1355413&page=4

An prefect example of why it is so dangerous to believe everything one reads...especially on a hobby chat board. That statement is absolutely not accurate if you read this post https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=244.

WhenItWasAHobby · #10 09-08-2020, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

PSA to me bears a lot of similarities to Coaches Corner. The latter as one will recall defended its authentication of bogus autographs by saying all they were doing were rendering good faith opinions.

Good analogy.

It's amazing that over a year has passed since the Blowout threads exposed widespread card doctoring and yet PSA appears to be stronger than ever. The CU stock is now over $43 - which is about double of the stock price when the scandal broke.

Sadly, it now appears very little will come of this. We recently learned that PSA will not buy back the doctored cards, but rather tell the consumers to the settle up with the seller. PSA continues to ban and silence collectors on their message boards who publicly acknowledge the problem. The outed card doctors, if banned, will likely use "fronts" to submit doctored cards to PSA and collectors and investors will continue to spend millions of dollars on doctored cards with not a clue they've been duped. In short it's utterly sickening how a select group of people have enriched themselves using this deplorable business model.

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