Hall of Fame Early Baseball Committee

[Steve D]

On Caruthers, is he even eligible for the Hall of Fame?

The rules stipulate you had to be in the big leagues for 10 years. He only had nine years as a pitcher (1884-1892), but he played a 10th season in 1893, hitting .275 as an outfielder.

He would be inducted as a pitcher (he's the only pitcher who has more than 100 wins more than losses (218-99) who's not in the HOF (except Andy Pettitte).

Steve

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Steve D

On Caruthers, is he even eligible for the Hall of Fame?

The rules stipulate you had to be in the big leagues for 10 years. He only had nine years as a pitcher (1884-1892), but he played a 10th season in 1893, hitting .275 as an outfielder.

He would be inducted as a pitcher (he's the only pitcher who has more than 100 wins more than losses (218-99) who's not in the HOF (except Andy Pettitte).

Steve

Yes.

[Kenny Cole]

Among the Negro Leaguers, who also fall within the Early Baseball Committee's purview, I think that I would support, in no particular order, Grant Johnson, Dick Lundy, John Beckwith, John Donaldson and Oliver Marcelle. No problem with Dahlen, McCormick, Caruthers or Stovey. I would probably add Tony Mullane and Bobby Matthews to my list of people to be looked at.

[CardCollector]

Great discussion folks! One point about Caruthers is that he crammed in many extra years of pitching in terms of innings pitched because of the way Comiskey used/abused him. Even if he probably deserves to be in based on pitching alone, his batting was legitimate: he finished second in average and first in on-base percentage in one of the years he played.

I think the only somewhat serious argument against Caruthers--and it also applies to Stovey--is that the American Association was too weak. But there are pretty good arguments against that belief, and in any event even if it were sometimes true for some years, you'd have to discount the league an extraordinary amount to knock out Caruthers.

[nat]

Caruthers didn't really pitch all that much. 2828 innings, even though it was the 19th century. Roy Halladay is the poster child for short career HOFer (Koufax is a special case). Roy pitched 2750 innings, but they were better innings. His ERA+ (ERA adjusted for the park he plays in, and then compared to league average) is 131, Caruthers' is 122. That Caruthers was also a good batter is also a good point. He seems like a borderline case to me, but of course it shouldn't be surprising that it's borderline cases that we've got left, considering how many opportunities we've had to induct these guys.

Bill Dahlen is a real oversight. He compares favorably to Alan Trammell, who really should have been inducted right away, but at least he made it eventually.

I could get behind Ross Barnes too, but he didn't play in enough seasons to qualify. The hall has waived the requirement before, but I doubt they'd do it for a guy who has been dead for 105 years.

[CardCollector]

I agree that Halladay deserves to be in, but I'd still compare Caruthers favorably to him. You're totally right about ERA+, it's just that I probably give more weight to Caruthers' ridiculous five-year WAR run that gives him some credit for his consistency and effectiveness even while being overused.

[conor912]

I know his career was shortened significantly, but I’dlove to see Smoky Joe Wood get some consideration. In 7 seasons as a pitcher he averaged 16 wins/year and has a lifetime ERA of 2. I know he falls short in other categories, but so don't plenty of other guys who are already in.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by nat

Caruthers didn't really pitch all that much. 2828 innings, even though it was the 19th century. Roy Halladay is the poster child for short career HOFer (Koufax is a special case). Roy pitched 2750 innings, but they were better innings. His ERA+ (ERA adjusted for the park he plays in, and then compared to league average) is 131, Caruthers' is 122. That Caruthers was also a good batter is also a good point. He seems like a borderline case to me, but of course it shouldn't be surprising that it's borderline cases that we've got left, considering how many opportunities we've had to induct these guys.

Bill Dahlen is a real oversight. He compares favorably to Alan Trammell, who really should have been inducted right away, but at least he made it eventually.

I could get behind Ross Barnes too, but he didn't play in enough seasons to qualify. The hall has waived the requirement before, but I doubt they'd do it for a guy who has been dead for 105 years.

They can put Barnes in as a Pioneer to get around the 10 year rule.

[Kidnapped18]

William Bell (124 Wins, Negro Leagues)

Bob Carruthers (1886 World Series, 218 Wins)

Eddie Cicotte (1917 World Series, 208 Wins, Black Sox Scandal)

Bill Dahlen (1905 World Series, .272 AVG, 2,400+ Hits)

Jake Daubert (1913 Chalmers Award, 1919 World Series, .303 AVG, 2,300+ Hits)

Shoeless Joe Jackson (1917 World Series, .356 AVG, 1,700+ Hits, Black Sox Scandal)

Sherry Magee (1919 World Series, .291 AVG, 2,100+ Hits)

Carl Mays (1915, 1916, 1918, 1923 World Series, 207 Wins, threw pitch that killed Ray Chapman)

Stuffy McInnis (1911, 1913, 1918, 1925 World Series, .307 AVG, 2,400+ Hits, A's $100,000 infield)

Tony Mullane (284 Wins, ambidextrous pitcher)

George Mullin (228 Wins)

Smoky Joe Wood (1912, 1915, 1920 World Series, 117 Wins, 34-5 Record in 1912)

[shagrotn77]

In terms of players, Dahlen (50%) and Stovey (50%) came closest last time. Stovey had some surprisingly impressive home run numbers, finishing first 5 times, second 3 times and third once. He also led the league in steals twice. He would have been a fantasy baseball #1 overall pick!

[JollyElm]

I'm not a fan of all of this looking way-far-back stuff. No one's alive who even saw the players play and the people who did see them play (or played alongside them) didn't think they were worthy enough at the time the Hall opened (yes, I know that's a VERY generalized comment), so it feels strange. Basing inclusion on theoretical stats misses the point IMHO.

Put it into modern context. Jeff Kent was a monster run producer at second base of all places. We all saw him play. Why the heck wasn't he a first-balloter? He gets absolutely no love (some say because of his personality?) and will eventually be dropped from the ballot, but some guy from the 1800's who might have a decent WAR stat is being considered??

[CardCollector]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I'm not a fan of all of this looking way-far-back stuff. No one's alive who even saw the players play and the people who did see them play (or played alongside them) didn't think they were worthy enough at the time the Hall opened (yes, I know that's a VERY generalized comment), so it feels strange. Basing inclusion on theoretical stats misses the point IMHO.

Put it into modern context. Jeff Kent was a monster run producer at second base of all places. We all saw him play. Why the heck wasn't he a first-balloter? He gets absolutely no love (some say because of his personality?) and will eventually be dropped from the ballot, but some guy from the 1800's who might have a decent WAR stat is being considered??

I have no opinion on Kent one way or the other, but stats like WAR aren't "theoretical." They are just more nuanced than the blunt stats available a hundred years ago (which could also explain why some of these guys weren't enshrined previously). If WAR, or ERA+, or other SABR-type stats were around then, the Hall would look very different now.

[bobcatfunds]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Among the Negro Leaguers, who also fall within the Early Baseball Committee's purview, I think that I would support, in no particular order, Grant Johnson, Dick Lundy, John Beckwith, John Donaldson and Oliver Marcelle. No problem with Dahlen, McCormick, Caruthers or Stovey. I would probably add Tony Mullane and Bobby Matthews to my list of people to be looked at.

Agree 100%