Breaking News - Cleveland Indians

[Tyruscobb]

I completely understand abandoning the Redskins name, and any mascot that depicts Native Americans in a bad light. However, I don’t understand the Indian aspect. It is just a name that Columbus coined, because he thought he landed in the Indies. He didn’t mean it in a derogatory way. Is the term Indian now unacceptable and political incorrect in every sense of its use? I’m not being flippant; I really don’t understand.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

I completely understand abandoning the Redskins name, and any mascot that depicts Native Americans in a bad light. However, I don’t understand the Indian aspect. It is just a name that Columbus coined, because he thought he landed in the Indies. He didn’t mean it in a derogatory way. Is the term Indian now unacceptable and political incorrect in every sense of its use? I’m not being flippant; I really don’t understand.

All of my Native friends and many others I happen to encounter can be heard using the term "Indian". Perhaps there are Native people who are offended by it, but I've never met a single person who was. Again, it's an incorrect term, not a racist one. Just a silly error from centuries ago, as you pointed out.

By all means, sentence the old mascot to the gallows, but strangely enough, the term "Indians" was in this instance one of unity between races, was it not?! Unfortunately, there's no way to convince the other side to take their blinders off.

[drcy]

One question is why are some people so attached to Cleveland keeping the name Indians. It's pretty much of a nothing, generic beyond generic name. There's nothing particularly special or specific or regional about it.

My complaint about teams names like the Tigers, Bears and Lions is they are so generic and unimaginitive, and Tigers and Lions have nothing to do with Detroit or Michigan. Maybe they had a bear come within 200 miles of Chicago 90 years ago, but it would have been pretty puny and 200 miles would place it in Wisconsin.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by drcy

One question is why are some people so attached to Cleveland keeping the name Indians. It's pretty much of a nothing, generic beyond generic name. There's nothing particularly special or specific or regional about it.

David--Surely you're familiar with why the team was originally named the Indians?! If more people knew the story, there would be a fight to keep the name, but that's not going to happen.

[Throttlesteer]

MLB is being wokeafied.

[perezfan]

It will never stop. They'll always find something to be offended by.

Next are the Chiefs, I'm guessing. Then the Braves. Then the Reds. Then the Yankees. Then the Metropolitans. Then the Cardinals (because Catholic Bishops have feelings too).

Woke MLB will lose more fans, and have no idea why.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by BillyCox3

David--Surely you're familiar with why the team was originally named the Indians?! If more people knew the story, there would be a fight to keep the name, but that's not going to happen.

I know about Sockalexis, but don't know that the Sockalexes story behind the name is entirely true. That itself may be a bit of myth.

Woke and PC culture annoy me as much as it annoys anyone, but the general fair standard is it's should be up to the people if it's acceptable that a team use them as a mascot. The Scandanavian Minnesotans (I'm a Scandinavian descendant of Vikings via my dad who was from Minnesotans) chose the Vikings moniker. The team founders included Ole Haugsrud and H. P. Skoglund, which are about as Norwegian of names as you can find. I don't know, but I assume Irish-Americans in Boston are find with the name being called the Celtics. The co-namer of the Celtics was Irish-American, and the other, Walter A. Brown, may have been as well. Not sure what Walter A Brown was, but he was from metro-Boston (Irish-American central) and Brown is a British or Irish surname.

If the name offends Indians than that's the determiner. Though if the name does not then it does not. One cannot merely assume it offends them, and activists often don't represent the views of the majority of the demographic they represent. I don't know what is the polling on Indians on the issue

[Jason19th]

While I agree that the name “Indians” is not in of itself racist, that is not the full history of the nickname. The problem is really Chief Wahoo and that cannot be totally undone by simply dropping the logo. Let’s stop pretending that the name was an honor for the last 100 years. If the name was meant to be an honor they would not have picked an incredibly racist image to wear on their sleeves. The logo was dehumanizing and mean. It was based on stereotype.

I think that many people also have never been taught the actual history of what the county did to native Americans. I am not talking about treaties in the 1830’s or the trail of tears. I am talking about taking children from their parents without consent and either sending them to schools or adoptive white parents to “take the Indian out of them.” This is a practice that continued until the 1970’s. This is practice that is easier to justify when the common culture mocks what it means to be Indian.

Finally I am not saying that all Native names have to be changed. They can be an honor. Look at the Florida Seminoles. For all of that programs other problems they have done a great job working with the Seminole tribe to have actual historical context and celebration of the culture.

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

While I agree that the name “Indians” is not in of itself racist, that is not the full history of the nickname. The problem is really Chief Wahoo and that cannot be totally undone by simply dropping the logo. Let’s stop pretending that the name was an honor for the last 100 years. If the name was meant to be an honor they would not have picked an incredibly racist image to wear on their sleeves. The logo was dehumanizing and mean. It was based on stereotype.

I think that many people also have never been taught the actual history of what the county did to native Americans. I am not talking about treaties in the 1830’s or the trail of tears. I am talking about taking children from their parents without consent and either sending them to schools or adoptive white parents to “take the Indian out of them.” This is a practice that continued until the 1970’s. This is practice that is easier to justify when the common culture mocks what it means to be Indian.

Finally I am not saying that all Native names have to be changed. They can be an honor. Look at the Florida Seminoles. For all of that programs other problems they have done a great job working with the Seminole tribe to have actual historical context and celebration of the culture.

Well said.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BillyCox3

David--Surely you're familiar with why the team was originally named the Indians?! If more people knew the story, there would be a fight to keep the name, but that's not going to happen.

Actually that story is a bit of a myth. Sockalexis played for a National league team based in Cleveland, and entirely different franchise that went belly up in 1899. He was 2 years dead by the time the AL team changed their name from the Naps. Many baseball history buffs think the name had more to do with the Boston Braves being a hot team at the time and Native American themed nicknames being popular in general.

[Kutcher55]

The Cleveland Baseball Team.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by drcy

My complaint about teams names like the Tigers, Bears and Lions is they are so generic and unimaginitive, and Tigers and Lions have nothing to do with Detroit or Michigan. Maybe they had a bear come within 200 miles of Chicago 90 years ago, but it would have been pretty puny and 200 miles would place it in Wisconsin.

This is incorrect, I would say all of the older franchise names have deeper meaning (many from their original locations of origin). The Detroit Tigers were named as a tribute to the Civil War Brigade for Detroit, "The Tigers". The original name of the Wolverines was never official. The Portmouth Spartans were relocated to Detroit and were renamed the Lions as a tribute to the popular sports team in the city...The Tigers. It was a theme.

The Bears were again a young franchise named to reflect the popularity of the other popular team of the city and continue a theme as well...The Cubs. They were previously the Decatur Staleys and named after a starch company that owned them. Not exactly a catchy name.

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by JustinD

This is incorrect, I would say all of the older franchise names have deeper meaning (many from their original locations of origin). The Detroit Tigers were named as a tribute to the Civil War Brigade for Detroit, "The Tigers". The original name of the Wolverines was never official. The Portmouth Spartans were relocated to Detroit and were renamed the Lions as a tribute to the popular sports team in the city...The Tigers. It was a theme.

The Bears were again a young franchise named to reflect the popularity of the other popular team of the city and continue a theme as well...The Cubs. They were previously the Decatur Staleys and named after a starch company that owned them. Not exactly a catchy name.

My great grandfather played for the Decatur Staleys and that was a sense of pride because he also worked at A.E. Staley Manufacturing and raised on a soy farm who supplied the plant. He unfortunately missed the most important year of their teams history and continued to play on what was more of a club after the Halas team moved up. The history I grew up with was that "Da Bears" were a continued theme playing off of the massively popular baseball franchise as you mention above.

[Tao_Moko]

At the end of the day - why offend if it's entirely unnecessary. Ohio is now the official birthplace of aviation and many other industries. There's plenty of other content to pull from too. Cleveland Aviators has tons of marketing potential.

[perezfan]

Fracking is another big industry in Ohio. The Cleveland Frackers has a pretty nice ring to it, but might it be construed as offensive?

[campyfan39]

Respectfully submitted: There are so many things that "offend" all of us in this world but most of us just go on with our lives and let others do the same; understanding that we will never agree on everything. I think if this were done in another year we could give it more consideration etc. but 2020 has been a year of extremes in so many ways it just seems reactionary. (yes I know its been discussed for a while)

What is next? Braves? Chiefs? Tar Heels? Warriors? Yankees? Mountaineers? Seminoles? Ole Miss Rebels? Utes? Blackhawks? Colonials? Orangemen? Cowboys? Illini? Aztecs? Tribe? etc. Thats just off the top of my head

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

At the end of the day - why offend if it's entirely unnecessary. Ohio is now the official birthplace of aviation and many other industries. There's plenty of other content to pull from too. Cleveland Aviators has tons of marketing potential.

[Mark17]

The whole thing is dumb. But if they are going to change the name, why not Cleveland Native Americans? Montreal Canadians is okay, isn't it?

I'm in Minnesota and wonder why teams can be called Vikings, or Celtics, or Irish, but not Indians. It actually seems a bit racist to eliminate Indians from the league, after 100 years. I mean, are Indians offensive to anybody?

Makes no intellectual sense. Some people just like to tell others what to do (or they will claim to be victimized and offended.)

[baseball tourist]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The whole thing is dumb. But if they are going to change the name, why not Cleveland Native Americans? Montreal Canadians is okay, isn't it?

The Montreal NHL team isn’t the Canadians, they are the Canadiens


French Canadians (also referred to as Canadiens; French: Canadiens français, pronounced [kanadjɛ̃ fʁɑ̃sɛ]; feminine form: Canadiennes françaises, pronounced [kanadjɛn fʁɑ̃sɛz]), or Franco-Canadians (French: Franco-Canadiens), are an ethnic group who trace their ancestry to French colonists who settled in Canada from the 17th century onward. Today, people of French heritage make up the majority of native speakers of French in Canada, who in turn account for about 22 per cent of the country's total population.

[prewarsports]

Actually, that is exactly what I meant, it is believed that is the first time the term "ticket scalping" was widely used in baseball, when people were charging extra to see Sockalexis play (although it was surely used before that).

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

Actually, that is exactly what I meant, it is believed that is the first time the term "ticket scalping" was widely used in baseball, when people were charging extra to see Sockalexis play (although it was surely used before that).

Huh. Didn't know that. That doesn't exactly support the "it was a tribute, and not at all a racist caricature" argument, does it?

[oldeboo]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

However, I don’t understand the Indian aspect. It is just a name that Columbus coined, because he thought he landed in the Indies. He didn’t mean it in a derogatory way. Is the term Indian now unacceptable and political incorrect in every sense of its use? I’m not being flippant; I really don’t understand.

I'm not sure anyone understands it.

This is from the National Museum of the American Indian:
"What is the correct terminology: American Indian, Indian, Native American, or Native?
All of these terms are acceptable. The consensus, however, is that whenever possible, Native people prefer to be called by their specific tribal name. In the United States, Native American has been widely used but is falling out of favor with some groups, and the terms American Indian or indigenous American are preferred by many Native people."

Years back, I believed Indian was the acceptable terminology and was later lead to believe Native American was more appropriate. I think I remember reading a poll awhile ago that many people that identify with this group find the term Native American more offensive than just Indian. My memory could be foggy on that though. I never mean to offend anyone, but it's hard to tell which one is preferred. I guess like anything, when you're dealing with people someone will complain.

I'm sure at some point team names like Yankees, Vikings, Celtics, etc will be forced to change as well. Once the animal rights advocates get going the animal names will vanish too.

Stanford used to use Indian as their name back in the day and changed their name to just a color, Cardinal. Their mascot is now a tree. Maybe some sort of plant or tree could be used for Cleveland. I think Buckeyes is taken.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by oldeboo

Maybe some sort of plant or tree could be used for Cleveland...

No. I'd be offended.

[MCyganik]

My vote is for the Cleveland Steamers, especially since they’ll be taking a dump... in salary, this year if they trade Lindor.

[71buc]

My father is a life long 80 year old Tribe fan from Sharon Pennsylvania. He quit wearing his Chief Wahoo coat last year. I asked him why? I asked him if he thought the team name and Chief Wahoo were racist symbols. He answered, “I don’t know, and it’s not my place to tell Native Americans what they should or should not find racially offensive or insensitive. It’s just coat, I’ll survive” He is a very smooth old guy. My mother always described him as James Dean mixed with a Miles Davis sense of cool. My mother was right. I have spent 57 years trying to measure up to him and have always fallen woefully short.

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by 71buc

My father is a life long 80 year old Tribe fan from Sharon Pennsylvania. He quit wearing his Chief Wahoo coat last year. I asked him why? I asked him if he thought the team name and Chief Wahoo were racist symbols. He answered, “I don’t know, and it’s not my place to tell Native Americans what they should or should not find racially offensive or insensitive. It’s just coat, I’ll survive” He is a very smooth old guy. My mother always described him as James Dean mixed with a Miles Davis sense of cool. My mother was right. I have spent 57 years trying to measure up to him and have always fallen woefully short.

Great tribute to your father. I'm going to start trying to measure up to him as well.

[Case12]

The University of Minnesota got it right. The Golden Gophers. Who could complain about a gopher with a cape?

[gawaintheknight]

Originally Posted by 71buc

My father is a life long 80 year old Tribe fan from Sharon Pennsylvania. He quit wearing his Chief Wahoo coat last year. I asked him why? I asked him if he thought the team name and Chief Wahoo were racist symbols. He answered, “I don’t know, and it’s not my place to tell Native Americans what they should or should not find racially offensive or insensitive. It’s just coat, I’ll survive” He is a very smooth old guy. My mother always described him as James Dean mixed with a Miles Davis sense of cool. My mother was right. I have spent 57 years trying to measure up to him and have always fallen woefully short.

+1

[Pack The Ripper]

Originally Posted by MCyganik

My vote is for the Cleveland Steamers, especially since they’ll be taking a dump... in salary, this year if they trade Lindor.

Well, the city already has the Cleveland Browns so that actually makes perfect sense.

[Snapolit1]

After killing most of these people off, and then relegating the remaining ones to horrible reservations, I think we've earned the right to use cartoon images of them as mascots for sports teams. They should probably be honored. Just like all the other races that are reflected on sport teams' uniforms and hats.

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

After killing most of these people off, and then relegating the remaining ones to horrible reservations, I think we've earned the right to use cartoon images of them as mascots for sports teams. They should probably be honored. Just like all the other races that are reflected on sport teams' uniforms and hats.

I'm pretty sure this is sarcasm. Please confirm!