What Am I?

sb1 · #1 12-15-2020, 06:47 AM

The rest of the original group images for those that have not seen them or did not want to search the site for them..

Luke · #2 12-15-2020, 12:34 PM

Wow. No idea what they are, but what an incredible find for $10 per.

oldeboo · #3 12-15-2020, 01:15 PM

On Adams, Gibson, and Wagner are you able to make out what it says in the bottom left of the images? That is certainly a clue. I'm not sure if that was discussed before. It looks like it says something "& Co." It's hard to make out from the images.

Also, just to be sure, when looking at these in hand is there any chance the "Pittsburgh" and other added color was done by hand on these? Or does it appear to be added prior to printing?

sb1 · #4 12-15-2020, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldeboo

On Adams, Gibson, and Wagner are you able to make out what it says in the bottom left of the images? That is certainly a clue. I'm not sure if that was discussed before. It looks like it says something "& Co." It's hard to make out from the images.

Also, just to be sure, when looking at these in hand is there any chance the "Pittsburgh" and other added color was done by hand on these? Or does it appear to be added prior to printing?

Forgot that little detail, it is "Bragdon - PGH." Which is well known engraver/printer John C. Bragdon of Pittsburgh who died in 1922. Probably another indication that they are from the 1910's..

sb1 · #5 12-15-2020, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke

Wow. No idea what they are, but what an incredible find for $10 per.

Luke, the original group was not $10 each, quite a bit more. I just got the recent Clarke with stamp and address and a handful of RPPC's that cost about $10 each.

jcmtiger · #6 12-15-2020, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sb1

The rest of the original group images for those that have not seen them or did not want to search the site for them..

Possibly team issued?

sb1 · #7 12-15-2020, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcmtiger

Possibly team issued?

Hard to say, each one has been cut from a larger group piece OR at the very least a larger individual host. One would think others would exist if mass produced. So I am thinking some type of broadside or such with a small initial print run..

oldeboo · #8 12-15-2020, 02:48 PM

I have a really wild theory that I don't think is so wild.

-These were found local to the Pittsburgh area.
-They are hand cut.
-There is at least 3 or 4 different fonts being used from card to card. It is highly unlikely a printer would do this on anything intended to be distributed, especially on the same sheet as others. It would look pretty silly and unprofessional.
-"Team" and "Club" would very unlikely be on the same sheet, especially if intended for any sort of distribution or even a window display. Again, way too sloppy.
-Leifield is cropped differently, I'll get into that.
-These all have the Horner/Johnston copyright. It's very possible these were added before whoever requested them received the images.
-Seeing the one's that say "World's Champions," it's rather obvious these were intended to celebrate the 1909 WS team. So these would be late 1909 or early 1910. Especially since one or two of these guys were only with the team until 1910.

I've never seen "Pittsburgh" across the chest on anything from this era, except the 1910 Tip Top cards that happen to celebrate the "World's Champions" as well. Has anyone else seen "Pittsburgh" in this context? They indeed all have the same images when comparing the Tip Tops and hand cuts, except the Leifield variation again. I think it's very possible these are some sort of prototypes or artist's/printer's proofs directly related to the producers of the Ward-Mackey cards. They potentially belonged to a few different proof sheets explaining the different fonts and "team"/"club" usage. They might have been trying to see what looked best for a potential print run of postcards if they could sell it to a customer. This explains the Leifield as well, there may be many others that were made with the oval crop to see how a postcard like that would look. Alternatively, maybe they were on the same sheet and the printer just picked random font because these were only intended to be used by the artist to create the Tip Top cards, so they just needed the info(spelling, position, etc). I think the postcard proof theory from the same producers of the Ward-Mackey cards makes the most sense. The chance of it being something other than outlined seems pretty slim.

This would fit with the Clarke having stuff on the back. Forged signature, writing after creasing, and a non matching stamp. These things were done after their intended use was complete and they were no longer needed. That particular card is deceiving and throwing people off to what these really are.

There is a solid chance these are very, VERY SPECIAL. Unfortunately, I think we need a few more clues to come to a definitive conclusion.

nolemmings · #9 12-15-2020, 03:04 PM

It is strange to see these match up so closely with the Tip Tops. I had always thought they put Camnitz' head on someone else's body (and Dots Miller too) because the heads looked too small to me, but here there is what looks like photographic evidence to the contrary.

h2oya311 · #10 12-15-2020, 03:17 PM

Scott -

I saw that listing on eBay opening at $100 and thought the rest of the PCs were worthless. I wasn't sure what to make of that Clarke though. Loved the Horner image. I figured it was some sort of "doctored" PC (sorta fantasy, although period). I had never seen the other similar PCs before. If I had known about them, I may have put in a bid. I was a little disappointed when the auction ended with one bid, but glad I didn't bid you up on something that you are interested in.

Wish I could help you, but I am no use. Cool to see them reunited with some others. And interesting that you now own two different Clarkes!!!

That Wagner!!!!

sb1 · #11 12-15-2020, 03:29 PM

Derek,

I interrogated the seller quite thoroughly and am pretty sure they were legit when they stated they bought the group as they were, from a local sale. She also agreed to set a lower buy it now IF they did not sell the first time, but I did not want to take the chance and placed a bid, with small cushion, just to get the Clark to research and compare it to the others I had.

Hopefully one day we will find out where they came from.

I am leaning towards either a box of some type or larger display/broadside and later cut apart.