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#201
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I think it's great that the HOF is accepting the NL as another "Major League", just a lot of thought and effort will need to be put into the stats for any meaningful comparison. And even then it will obviously be an estimate of 'greatness'. Jeez, we can't even agree on who the best picture was in a single league within a given year, for one example. As far as anecdotal/opinions. I've read enough books were 'Joe Dirt said Milt Pappas was the toughest pitcher he ever faced, even tougher than Koufax', that individual opinions mean little. But taken in aggregate they could be meaningful. |
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#203
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#204
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That is the point. There was no shared experience when it came to excluding players of color from the major leagues. |
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Here's another point of view from a prominent Black sportswriter, Howard Bryant, who penned Henry Aaron's autobiography:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...-black-players |
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I don't have an issue with stats from the Negro League's being counted. I don't think there's much winning with the MLB's declaration of this though. Either way they are angering someone or some group of people. I did appreciate Bryant's take on the situation, and I do think he's right to a degree, this recognizes Black Ball Players but at the same time does not paint the full picture.
Baseball, to my knowledge at least, practiced De Facto segregation. There was never anything prohibiting owners signing people of color, other than the unwritten code all of them were willing to uphold, along with the opinions Kennesaw Mountain Landis who ruled the game with an iron first. More or less, it didn't have to be written, what he said usually applied. I think Baseball is trying to right a wrong. It's a wrong that is very complex, and there's really no proper way to do it. Because regardless of how it is handled someone, somewhere will detract from it. I think the MLB is trying to provide a spotlight to the Negro Leagues, to recognize it's history by including all of these players into the official MLB record books. I think baseball does need to recognize the fact that these players didn't choose not to play in the MLB, but that they simply weren't allowed. However I do think what baseball is doing is more than a lot of the other sports out there does. I do not want to overstep my bounds on this forum by talking politics but lets just say the NBA and the NFL aren't exactly the poster-children for justice with many of their practices. And again any decision of this magnitude will anger some group of people in some way.
__________________
Successful Deals With: charlietheexterminator, todeen, tonyo, Santo10fan Bocabirdman (5x), 8thEastVB, JCMTiger, Rjackson44 Republicaninmass, 73toppsmann, quinnsryche (2x), Donscards. Last edited by Seven; 12-18-2020 at 02:05 PM. Reason: Clarification on my part. |
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#208
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Jason, would love to hear more about this. Where do I look?
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One example relates to belief that Black men weren’t cerebral enough to pitch, catch, or manage. Here is Bob Kendrick on the topic— ——- “Historically, pitchers and catchers did not transition from the Negro Leagues,’’ Kendrick said. “There were great arms in the Negro Leagues, and we had great catchers from Josh Gibson to Roy Campanella, but that was considered a cerebral position. And the general consensus back then was that these men weren’t smart enough to play in the major leagues. ——— Same line of racist thinking limited Black Quarterbacks in football and managers/GMs in several sports. Additionally, Black pitchers were hesitant to throw inside vs white batters out of fear their lives or careers would be at risk if they injured a white player.
__________________
Thanks, Jason Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/ |
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#211
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Too little too late
When I read the headline of this happening, I really hoped it had more to it than just stats. I know people live and die by the stats, I am certainly not one of those folks. I guess there was a naive part of me that had hoped if MLB was going to make the gesture of inclusion, there would have been an extension of some percentage of pension or benefit extended to living players, or something comparable to what players of that time period collected (or what their families would collect). At the end of the day, if you are going to recognize the league as professional, you should commit to the financial commitments of "squaring the house." If not, it feels like an empty gesture trying to make up for a shameful part of the sport's history done solely for optics.
Last edited by yanks87; 12-18-2020 at 03:42 PM. |
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Adam W:
Luque was good in the majors but not great. Marsans doesn't even enter the equation. Lopez was of Spanish, thus European, ancestry. My comment was that there were no Latin American superstars pre-integration. I was quickly shot down about Ted Williams, to which I certainly conceded, despite Teddy clearly not showing the world his Latino pride. "Now, Mr. Archive, you had better choose your battles wisely lest we sue you!" (Thought about that one for the first time in ages yesterday and have been looking for any excuse to use it!) Last edited by BillyCoxDodgers3B; 12-18-2020 at 03:46 PM. |
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#214
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Exactly why it slipped my mind in the first place. Thanks to your correction, though, I'm never likely to forget about it again!
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The price tag associated with this magnanimous gesture? It amounted to annual payments of between $7,500 and $10,000 per player. That future got even brighter for the veterans of the Negro Leagues in 2004, when MLB agreed to make payments to more of these ballplayers on the grounds that baseball had not been totally integrated until 1959, when the Boston Red Sox became the last team to field a black player. The terms of the agreement weren’t exactly the same as with the 1997 group of ex Negro Leaguers. Players who never played in the major leagues were given the option of electing to choose pensions totaling $375 per month ($4,500 annually) for life or $10,000 a year for four years. |
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#217
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I think recognizing the NL is great, and preserving their history is very important. The above post nails it. My sole objection is blending the stats with long established ML stats. For instance, will we now need to re-calculate who won the batting titles for each of those impacted years? |
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Professional baseball players who are retired and white players are not entitled to the pension benefits Major League Baseball bestowed on former Negro Leagues players, a federal appeals court ruled. The San Francisco-based 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that MLB did not discriminate against about 1,000 white players when it gave medical benefits and $1,000 monthly pensions to dozens of elderly black players who didn't qualify for a pension. Until 1979, all players had to be on a major league roster for at least four seasons to receive pensions. The lawsuit was brought by white players who didn't have four years tenure but alleged that not getting the same pensions as blacks was discriminatory. The appeals court disagreed, saying the pension program created for black players who put in time with the Negro Leagues was "created to remedy specific discrimination." Before 1947, blacks were not allowed into MLB. So the league changed the pension rules in 1997, saying tenure in the old Negro Leagues from 1947 and before counted toward an MLB pension if black players also had time in the majors. The 27 players who were eligible for the pensions all played part of at least four seasons after Jackie Robinson broke baseball's color barrier in 1947. Last edited by Casey2296; 12-18-2020 at 07:23 PM. |
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#220
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I had to go back and double-check on this, as something was nagging at me that like Al Lopez, Vernon was of Spanish descent. Apparently, his father was indeed of Spanish-Portuguese ancestry and his mother's familial background was Welsh-Irish.
Last edited by BillyCoxDodgers3B; 12-18-2020 at 05:46 PM. |
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PE : we about to watch the super bowl, we got a black quarter back, so step back. |
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I was going to bring that point up about black pitchers and double standards. If a black quarterback wasn’t accepted until 1988, what makes you think a black man throwing a baseball 90 mph at a white man’s head would have been accepted in the late 1940s and throughout the 1950s?
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Don't worry, if you do, I'll be here to berate you endlessly.
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 12-18-2020 at 07:18 PM. |
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#226
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The NA was part of the evolution of the organization of professional baseball and the best players of the time were involved. I think the key here is "paid" and "best of their time." This is the same argument that has been made in this thread regarding the Negro Leagues. If the best players are involved, the league should be considered "major." If we can not exclude black players for being denied the right to play in white major leagues through no fault of their own, we shouldn't punish early players for being born too soon. This distinction is important regarding HOF eligibility and the "ten year rule." Pioneer players have never received fair treatment from the HOF and are pitifully underrepresented in the HOF. Why aren't more baseball enthusiasts trying to right this wrong? Last edited by GaryPassamonte; 12-19-2020 at 04:01 AM. |
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__________________
Signed 1953 Topps set: 264/274 (96.35 %) Last edited by egri; 12-19-2020 at 04:33 AM. |
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#231
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__________________
Tony Biviano |
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#233
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__________________
Tony Biviano |
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Let’s just keep focused on the issue at hand: the Negro Leagues...
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Gonna be honest, I mentally tackled this sidebar discussion from every possible angle and I really don’t see how it could go horribly, terribly, dumpster fire wrong. So sure, have fun with that.
__________________
Always looking for rare Tommy Bridges items. |
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i think the same would be said the other way around, no? |
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If you say so.
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Not just the 80's. After Russell Wilson's famous super bowl INT my former boss started off a statement with, "This is not racist, but...". Of course, I knew the next words out of his mouth would, in fact, be racist & he didn't disappoint finishing with "a black quarterback can't win a super bowl". Wilson himself had won it the previous season, but whatever.
__________________
Successful transactions with: Bfrench00, TonyO, Mintacular, Patriots74, Sean1125, Bocabirdman, Rjackson44, KC Doughboy, Kailes2872 |
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__________________
1971 Pirates Ticket Quest: 98 of 153 regular season stubs (64%), 14 of 14 1971 ALCS, NLCS , and World Series stubs (100%) If you have any 1971 Pirate regular season game stubs (home or away games) please let me know what have! 1971 Pirates Game used bats Collection 18/18 (100%) |
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I hear people say ignorant things all the time, about all sorts of things. On the topic of Russ Wilson, he is undeniably very successful at his profession, he's paid quite well, he's wildly popular in Seattle, and he seems like a genuinely nice guy and very hard working. Personally, he's my favorite guy on that team. That interception that lost the Super Bowl is 100% on the coach. Give the ball to The Beast, 3 times if you have to, and you win. But no, Sherman has to get cute and call a risky play. |
#242
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__________________
1971 Pirates Ticket Quest: 98 of 153 regular season stubs (64%), 14 of 14 1971 ALCS, NLCS , and World Series stubs (100%) If you have any 1971 Pirate regular season game stubs (home or away games) please let me know what have! 1971 Pirates Game used bats Collection 18/18 (100%) Last edited by 71buc; 12-21-2020 at 09:45 AM. |
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#244
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I started out skeptical of this whole thing but after reading the arguments against it on N54 I have changed my tune. I view it as an act of contrition on the part of MLB towards the men who were not enshrined in Cooperstown. They deserve respect as Major League players, not back of the bus status as Negro League players.
As far as parity goes, we routinely ignore the statistics from the 19th century game, especially every season pitching stat, because it was a totally different game played under totally different conditions. Designating Artie Wilson as a .400 hitter doesn't diminish Ted Williams one iota.
__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... |
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#246
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I attribute the disparities you mention to free will - people preferring one sport over another. The fact that it's easier to play basketball in a more confined area (like in a city neighborhood) and with fewer players might be a factor too. |
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#248
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Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
__________________
Barry Larkin, Joey Votto, Tris Speaker, 1930-45 Cincinnati Reds, T206 Cincinnati Successful deals with: Banksfan14, Brianp-beme, Bumpus Jones, Dacubfan (x5), Dstrawberryfan39, Ed_Hutchinson, Fballguy, fusorcruiser (x2), GoCalBears, Gorditadog, Luke, MikeKam, Moosedog, Nineunder71, Powdered H20, PSU, Ronniehatesjazz, Roarfrom34, Sebie43, Seven, and Wondo |
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Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
__________________
Barry Larkin, Joey Votto, Tris Speaker, 1930-45 Cincinnati Reds, T206 Cincinnati Successful deals with: Banksfan14, Brianp-beme, Bumpus Jones, Dacubfan (x5), Dstrawberryfan39, Ed_Hutchinson, Fballguy, fusorcruiser (x2), GoCalBears, Gorditadog, Luke, MikeKam, Moosedog, Nineunder71, Powdered H20, PSU, Ronniehatesjazz, Roarfrom34, Sebie43, Seven, and Wondo |
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I've come to grips with the play over the years by believing that the Patriots player just made a nice play on the ball. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
__________________
Barry Larkin, Joey Votto, Tris Speaker, 1930-45 Cincinnati Reds, T206 Cincinnati Successful deals with: Banksfan14, Brianp-beme, Bumpus Jones, Dacubfan (x5), Dstrawberryfan39, Ed_Hutchinson, Fballguy, fusorcruiser (x2), GoCalBears, Gorditadog, Luke, MikeKam, Moosedog, Nineunder71, Powdered H20, PSU, Ronniehatesjazz, Roarfrom34, Sebie43, Seven, and Wondo |
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