2021 HOF Ballot

Wildfireschulte · #1 12-24-2020, 06:32 AM

Is there any doubt that there are a bunch of PED users already in the HOF? Without naming names, I can think of a dozen guys that I suspect. It�s wrong that the writers get to ignore obvious suspicions for some and continue to punish others.

bounce · #2 12-24-2020, 09:36 AM

The PEDs happened, I don't mind the statements by holding them out to year 10 if that's what happens, but if for some reason Bonds/Clemens and others DON'T MAKE IT, it becomes similar to the Pete Rose and Joe Jackson farces.

I WOULD VOTE FOR THESE
- Curt Schilling 70.0% 9th year - being a jerk is the main turn off here, but I do think he gets home this year
- Roger Clemens 61.0% 9th year - this is a no brainer, but again I'm fine if people hold out until year 10
- Barry Bonds 60.7% 9th year - ditto Roger
- Manny Ram�rez 28.2% 5th year - he was quirky for sure and the PEDs definitely padded stats, but in the end he was clutch and you still gotta hit it
- Sammy Sosa 13.9% 9th year - PEDs padded stats but three 60 HR seasons and 600 total, and was anyone more fun to watch in the late 90s? He's a polarizing guy now and the Cubs spat with him I think has more to do with his low voting than anything. If they'd squash that beef, I think his totals would jump huge. He probably misses out, and he and Big Mac get in together at a later date from the veterans committee. I'd be fine with that at this point, they belong together.
- Andy Pettitte 11.3% 3rd year - I realize this one is somewhat borderline and controversial, but...250 wins, all-time postseason win leader (yes I know it was expanded playoffs but he's ahead by 4 wins I think?), nearly 2500 Ks, and his post-season stats are essentially identical to regular season. PEDs are an issue obviously, but he's a likable guy and teammates loved him. To me, this is the pitcher equivalent to Harold Baines, Tim Raines and a few others. If we're going to treat hitters like that, don't we have to treat some pitchers similarly?

I WANT TO STUDY A LITTLE MORE, BUT I MIGHT CONSIDER THESE
Omar Vizquel 52.6% 4th year - so much of an accumulator, how good was the defense really? It's why I want to look some more. Recent headlines don't help.
Billy Wagner 31.7% 6th year - closers are tough to gauge, so I want to compare to peers and evaluate where he stands in that group.
Gary Sheffield 30.5% 7th year - somewhat of an accumulator, I think what also hurts him quite a bit is he doesn't really have an anchor team to help him along? I guess it's probably Marlins. This to me is a case of a little bit rough personality mixed with too much free agency movement...and of course PEDs, but again we gotta eventually move past that.

I HAVE TROUBLE WITH THESE
Scott Rolen 35.3% 4th year - this guy was a pro's pro, I really like him but I struggle to put the case together. He and Lance Berkman are who I think of when I think just outside looking in.
Todd Helton 29.2% 3rd year - another guy who was a pro's pro, but I think the Colorado bit actually hurts from a stat perspective and again just a struggle to put the whole case together. Put him with Rolen and Berkman.
Jeff Kent 27.5% 8th year - he was really good for a few years, but goodness he was a difficult personality and you don't see too many teammates singing the praises of his locker room demeanor
Andruw Jones 19.4% 4th year - phenomenal talent that had some big moments, but I don't feel like his star burned bright for long enough
Bobby Abreu 5.5% 2nd year - solid player, but not HOF caliber

Rich Klein · #3 12-24-2020, 10:17 AM

If you really want to keep informed on the voting; this update is a must

http://www.bbhoftracker.com/

Usually for players such as the top 3, you need to be comfortably past 75 percent to get in. As of today, I doubt anyone will be elected from the new player world. If anyone gets in, my instinct says it is Curt Schilling whom is being kept back from getting in because of his extreme political views.

My instinct and personal belief is if he kept slightly quieter about those, he'd already be in the HOF.

Rich

bxb · #4 12-28-2020, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

If you really want to keep informed on the voting; this update is a must

http://www.bbhoftracker.com/

Usually for players such as the top 3, you need to be comfortably past 75 percent to get in. As of today, I doubt anyone will be elected from the new player world. If anyone gets in, my instinct says it is Curt Schilling whom is being kept back from getting in because of his extreme political views.

My instinct and personal belief is if he kept slightly quieter about those, he'd already be in the HOF.

Rich

I see Schilling has just topped 75% on the tracker, and is the only one so far.

Mike D. · #5 12-28-2020, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bxb

I see Schilling has just topped 75% on the tracker, and is the only one so far.

Looking at the list of SP sorted by career WAR, it�s kind of surprising it�s taken Schilling this long.

He�s 26th all-time (BB-R WAR) and of the 25 pitchers ahead of him, only Clemens isn�t in the HOF.

The average WAR for a HOF SP is 73.3, and that average includes Young and Johnson over 160.

BTW, lovers of old time baseball will know that Jim McCormick is next on the list and also not in the Hall.

packs · #6 12-28-2020, 09:23 AM

He didn't win any Cy Youngs, he never led the league in ERA and he was never the best pitcher on any winning team he was on (Randy and Pedro were). Schilling is no more a HOFer than Tim Hudson is. They were both very good but never elite, as evidenced by Schilling's 300 K seasons in which he received no Cy Young votes for one and finished 4th in the other. That should tell you how his contemporaries viewed him as well.

mainemule · #7 12-28-2020, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

He didn't win any Cy Youngs, he never led the league in ERA and he was never the best pitcher on any winning team he was on (Randy and Pedro were). Schilling is no more a HOFer than Tim Hudson is. They were both very good but never elite, as evidenced by Schilling's 300 K seasons in which he received no Cy Young votes for one and finished 4th in the other. That should tell you how his contemporaries viewed him as well.

Hudson got a late ring with SF but how do you discount Schilling's post-season successes? Schilling was the better pitcher then Pedro in 04 and was ace of Phillies in 93. Schilling was elite when it mattered.

rhettyeakley · #8 12-28-2020, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

He didn't win any Cy Youngs, he never led the league in ERA and he was never the best pitcher on any winning team he was on (Randy and Pedro were). Schilling is no more a HOFer than Tim Hudson is. They were both very good but never elite, as evidenced by Schilling's 300 K seasons in which he received no Cy Young votes for one and finished 4th in the other. That should tell you how his contemporaries viewed him as well.

As far as the numbers go I feel like you are looking for reasons to exclude Schilling. His HOF metrics are really all there, there has never been a need to be the absolute best at your position to be an eventual HOFer, it is how guys like Tony Perez (who I love) get in.

I have seen a lot of your posts in the past and it is pretty obvious politically where you are (and there is nothing wrong with that and I am mostly in the same category) but it seems like you just kind of hate Schilling, which is understandable.

slidekellyslide · #9 12-24-2020, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildfireschulte

Is there any doubt that there are a bunch of PED users already in the HOF? Without naming names, I can think of a dozen guys that I suspect. It�s wrong that the writers get to ignore obvious suspicions for some and continue to punish others.

Piazza, Bagwell, Ivan Rodriguez. <----there you go.

stlcardsfan · #10 12-24-2020, 11:50 AM

I laughed out loud at LaTroy Hawkins.

Ricky · #11 12-24-2020, 01:35 PM

Greenies didn�t make anyone into a video game number producer. They basically helped players stay awake. Meanwhile, Barry Bonds� head grew two cap sizes.

brianp-beme · #12 12-24-2020, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stlcardsfan

I laughed out loud at LaTroy Hawkins.

From over the years Hawkins is the first HOF candidate that I only have a vague recollection, and only because of his catchy name. What is exactly is the process/requirements to become a candidate?

Brian

Mike D. · #13 12-24-2020, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

From over the years Hawkins is the first HOF candidate that I only have a vague recollection, and only because of his catchy name. What is exactly is the process/requirements to become a candidate?

Brian

3. Eligible Candidates -- Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning fifteen (15) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.

B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3(A).

C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.

D. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.

E. Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

Mike D. · #14 12-24-2020, 06:12 PM

The above is the rules, but there is some kind of nominating process. Most 10- year major leaguers of note make the ballot once they�ve been retired 5 years.

There are exceptions, though...a couple of years ago Javier Vazquez was inexplicably left off.

Jason19th · #15 12-24-2020, 08:09 PM

First I am not saying that LaTroy Hawkins is a hall of famer. But he was a special player. Stealing a line Bill James used about Jesse Orosco, Hawkins was consistent for twenty years in a role that few do well two seasons in a row. Middle relief may not be glamorous, but he pitched in over 1000 games. That is an accomplishment that needs to be remembered. I got the chance to watch him when he pitched with the Brewers late in his career. I never remember thinking oh no here comes LaTroy. He always was prepared and always pitched smart. In addition every story about him tell what great guy he was. He should be a first time inductee in the Hall of Really good

bnorth · #16 12-24-2020, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Piazza, Bagwell, Ivan Rodriguez. <----there you go.

Nolan Ryan, Tony Gwynn, and Ricky Henderson in case you want a few more for the list.

brianp-beme · #17 12-24-2020, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

Nolan Ryan, Tony Gwynn, and Ricky Henderson in case you want a few more for the list.

I don't ever remember Tony being lumped into this group before.

Brian

Throttlesteer · #18 12-24-2020, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

I don't ever remember Tony being lumped into this group before.

Brian

Yes, I struggle with Gwynn for sure. Nothing about his performance or physique screams PEDs to me.

mr2686 · #19 12-25-2020, 12:36 AM

Tony Gwynn using PED's? C'mon, that's just plain silly. PED's don't make you magically stronger or better. They allow you to work out more and recover faster from those workouts. Tony wasn't a workout kinda guy, as you can tell by his physique for many years. Tony's gift was eye/hand coordination and videotape study of his swing.

Gnep31 · #20 12-30-2020, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr2686

Tony Gwynn using PED's? C'mon, that's just plain silly. PED's don't make you magically stronger or better. They allow you to work out more and recover faster from those workouts. Tony wasn't a workout kinda guy, as you can tell by his physique for many years. Tony's gift was eye/hand coordination and videotape study of his swing.

Regardless of the science, PED's do allow for massive muscle growth in a very short amount of time. My roommate put on 15 lbs of muscle in one cycle while playing football in college his freshman yr. I have seen countless examples of similar muscle growth and increased on field performance from my time playing and coaching.

If you think it was 'ok' for our idols to cheat by using PED's then you have never seen HS or college kids die or have serious health issues because of PED use. Most had no chance of getting drafted, but they did go from average players to local or regional All Stars.

Allowing them into the Hall justifies/condones their actions and they should not be in.

Regarding Schilling - I believe he should be in. I support his not taking a knee to the left....pun intended

Tabe · #21 12-26-2020, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Throttlesteer

Yes, I struggle with Gwynn for sure. Nothing about his performance or physique screams PEDs to me.

He went from a guy hitting under .320 three consecutive seasons with no power from age 30-32 to winning four straight batting titles and challenging .400 while ALSO increasing power. He went from 4 homers in 134 games at age 31 to 16 in 127 seven years later at age 38.

He absolutely fits the profile of a PED guy - significant performance improvement with added power at the really late stages of his career instead of a decline.

nat · #22 12-26-2020, 11:31 AM

The context changed. League average slugging percentage was .368 in 1992, .398 in 1993, and .415 in 1994. Rising tides lift all boats, and it lifted Gwynn's.

Throttlesteer · #23 12-26-2020, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

He went from a guy hitting under .320 three consecutive seasons with no power from age 30-32 to winning four straight batting titles and challenging .400 while ALSO increasing power. He went from 4 homers in 134 games at age 31 to 16 in 127 seven years later at age 38.

He absolutely fits the profile of a PED guy - significant performance improvement with added power at the really late stages of his career instead of a decline.

That's very shaky deductive reasoning and the performance benefits really don't add up. PEDs don't help you get the bat on the ball; The do help put the ball over the wall. Gwynn and Ted Williams relationship blossomed in the mid-90's, when the two discussed the art of hitting. Ted's biggest criticism of Tony was his lack of driving the inside pitch for power. Gwynn attributes his additional power (if you consider mid-double digits impressive) to the various ideas Williams provided.

Gwynn had antithesis of the typical PED physique. He was a very large man with lots of belly fat. The body does naturally have to build some muscle to effectively carry around more weight. But, I think it's a MASSIVE stretch to assume Gwynn was on PEDs. There's plenty of interviews of him speaking on the matter and taking ownership of knowing it was going on, but not saying anything. But I would bet a hearty sum he was clean.

Adding a pic of his 1997 Donruss card. Very different appearance from a Bonds or McGwire. The problem with this era is, we'll call any great performances into question because it was out there. What's next, Cal Ripken? Jesus?

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Card shows in 2021	parkplace33	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	17	12-30-2020 01:42 PM
IBHOF Class of 2021	Exhibitman	Boxing / Wrestling Cards & Memorabilia Forum	3	12-28-2020 03:48 PM
2021 Autograph goals	Wrightfan85	Autograph Forum- Primarily Sports	11	12-18-2020 06:35 PM
2021 Autograph goals	Wrightfan85	Autograph Forum- Primarily Sports	0	12-15-2020 05:13 PM
Trout to Philly in 2021?	clydepepper	Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk	12	03-05-2019 06:25 PM