Postwar Vintage vs Modern ?

[todeen]

The dial will change soon, seeing as players with 1989 rookies are being elected to the hall of fame. Adrian Beltre's retirement was the death knell for players playing in the 90s. So the dial should move to pre-1990. Albert Pujols debuted in 2001.

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[Eric72]

The junk wax era may become the new "generally accepted" line of demarcation before too long.

[swarmee]

Some people have already moved it to 1989 Upper Deck as the start of "modern." However, I still think the overproduction and new techniques of Donruss and Fleer will forever exclude it from "vintage" despite the 30-year demarcation lines of classic cars and other collectibles. At least in my mind.

[drcy]

The answer is there no set definition or universally accepted rule and never will be. Realize that someone who is 18, 25 or 30 will see past time differently than someone here who is 50 or 60. 1985 may seem like yesterday to some of us, but it's almost a generation before someone was born.

The simple way is to catalog by years: Pre-WWII, 1970-80s Topps, etc.

[cesarcap]

Why can't we just leave the junk wax era in it's own separate category?

[SPMIDD]

Originally Posted by cesarcap

Why can't we just leave the junk wax era in it's own separate category?

Are you saying that my 200 Juan Gonzales rookie cards will never be worth anything?

[cesarcap]

Are they graded PSA 10??????

[gustomania]

Good point and I suppose that would be fine, just curious how people felt with cards like 83 Yaz and bench. To me there starting to feel like vintage.

Or like a 87 Ryan and Rose?

Originally Posted by cesarcap

Why can't we just leave the junk wax era in it's own separate category?

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Some people have already moved it to 1989 Upper Deck as the start of "modern." However, I still think the overproduction and new techniques of Donruss and Fleer will forever exclude it from "vintage" despite the 30-year demarcation lines of classic cars and other collectibles. At least in my mind.

Agree.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by todeen

The dial will change soon, seeing as players with 1989 rookies are being elected to the hall of fame. Adrian Beltre's retirement was the death knell for players playing in the 90s. So the dial should move to pre-1990. Albert Pujols debuted in 2001.

Your viewpoint is totally valid.

My argument would be that the definition has more to do with what was going on in the card hobby at the time than just what was happening only on the ball field. By the calendar, all dates will be "vintage" at some point by a dictionary definition. But the card hobby changed dramatically in the 1980's vs. how it had worked for 30+ years before, one because of the loss of Topps' monopoly, and two due to the fact that the hobby exploded mainstream; card shops appeared on virtually every corner, and even people who didn't collect cards now knew they were at least supposed to be "worth something." I think the landscape of the hobby has to count for something. Junk wax then later in the 80's was another difference. Cards in the 1960's and earlier were perceived as scarce because nobody knew they were supposed to be worth anything, and threw them out. They were temporary ephemera. By the mid-80's, card manufacturers were overproducing everything one because it was selling, but two - it could be argued to counter what had happened earlier. Either way, history has shown us a dividing line between "junk" that hit it's apex in the early 90's and cards that came before it. The "junk" is not scarce by a longshot - even 30 years later.

When I was growing up in the hobby (1986 - about '94), many dealers considered "vintage" pre-1974, because that was when Topps went from packs in series to one single series. Later in the 90's, the definition kind of pesudo shifted to 1980, since that was the last year of Topps monopoly dominance.

Again, there is no one 100% correct definition. My point is that in 1976, many kids were still buying packs and flipping cards and carrying them around rubber-banded in their pockets. By 1986, many packs were being opened with the cards going straight into plastic, because by then everyone knew they were supposed to be worth something. That's a huge difference in hobby self-awareness. Today the more-or-less accepted definition of "vintage" on the internet and in trading groups seems to be 1980 and earlier. I would agree with that, and then keeping the "junk era" it's own separate thing, because the philosophy and facts about the cards of that era are just so unique. "Modern" to me refers to a time starting around the early 2000's or a bit before maybe, when card manufactures had realized their folly of the junk era, and had moved on to producing things like shiny numbered autos and parallels, making use of deliberate scarcity, and (also importantly) when they decided it was no big deal to totally price kids out of the hobby.

[ASF123]

I, for one, fully support the expansion of "vintage" to include junk wax - maybe the cards I have from my childhood collection will be worth something again! Let's make this happen, people!

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by ASF123

I, for one, fully support the expansion of "vintage" to include junk wax - maybe the cards I have from my childhood collection will be worth something again! Let's make this happen, people!

I won't have a problem with this for long if it happens, but understand it's just less descriptive. The term will become less valuable because it will have been broadened. There is an incredible difference in the history of a common Fleer card from 1991 when compared to a common Topps card from 1972. And expecting that your junk era cards might suddenly become valuable due solely to a terminology change is probably wishful thinking...

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

And expecting that your junk era cards might suddenly become valuable due solely to a terminology change is probably wishful thinking...

Oh, I know - I was joking. I agree with your views.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by ASF123

Oh, I know - I was joking. I agree with your views.

LOL sorry. I sometimes have been known to take things way too seriously.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

My argument would be that the definition has more to do with what was going on in the card hobby at the time than just what was happening only on the ball field.

I understand, but they are entangled. I started collecting in 1991, and of all the brands I was most aware that Upper Deck had nicer cards. If I was going to set a line of demarcation in the 1980s, I would choose pre-1989, with the arrival of Upper Deck. All the other companies followed suit not long after, and then due to nicer paper, they could incorporate refractors. Thicker and nicer cardstock was a game changer.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by todeen

I understand, but they are entangled. I started collecting in 1991, and of all the brands I was most aware that Upper Deck had nicer cards. If I was going to set a line of demarcation in the 1980s, I would choose pre-1989, with the arrival of Upper Deck. All the other companies followed suit not long after, and then due to nicer paper, they could incorporate refractors. Thicker and nicer cardstock was a game changer.

It's true, that's just another dividing line. But the junk era also started before premium cards. I remember too being impressed with Upper Deck as a 12 year-old in 1989. Those cards were like nothing we'd ever seen before.

Maybe it's simpler just to refer to some things more generically as "old cards." That's what we called 1950's cards in the 1980's. The term "vintage" didn't really even come into play to my knowledge until I was an adult in the hobby. I thought it was silly at first myself.

[Tere1071]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

It's true, that's just another dividing line. But the junk era also started before premium cards. I remember too being impressed with Upper Deck as a 12 year-old in 1989. Those cards were like nothing we'd ever seen before.

Maybe it's simpler just to refer to some things more generically as "old cards." That's what we called 1950's cards in the 1980's. The term "vintage" didn't really even come into play to my knowledge until I was an adult in the hobby. I thought it was silly at first myself.

Back in 1972-73 when at the ripe age of 11, I got my first older cards ranging from 1951-1964 we'd refer to them as "old-time cards." I knew someone who had one 33 Goudey common and that was one of the most amazing items that I'd ever seen. To be young once again...

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Tere1071

Back in 1972-73 when at the ripe age of 11, I got my first older cards ranging from 1951-1964 we'd refer to them as "old-time cards." I knew someone who had one 33 Goudey common and that was one of the most amazing items that I'd ever seen. To be young once again...

Yep. The first card I owned that I thought of as truly "old" was a '66 Topps Sandy Koufax. This was in 1987 or '88, so the card was barely 20 years old, LOL.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Yep. The first card I owned that I thought of as truly "old" was a '66 Topps Sandy Koufax. This was in 1987 or '88, so the card was barely 20 years old, LOL.

My first two "old" cards were 1961 Sandy Koufax and Duke Snider, purchased around 1995. I felt triumphant holding those cards in my hand. King of the Hill. My mom has always been a Dodgers fan. When I asked her for those I thought she would say no, but she said yes! I still remember the feeling of excitement as an 8/9 yr old.

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Your viewpoint is totally valid.

My argument would be that the definition has more to do with what was going on in the card hobby at the time than just what was happening only on the ball field. By the calendar, all dates will be "vintage" at some point by a dictionary definition. But the card hobby changed dramatically in the 1980's vs. how it had worked for 30+ years before, one because of the loss of Topps' monopoly, and two due to the fact that the hobby exploded mainstream; card shops appeared on virtually every corner, and even people who didn't collect cards now knew they were at least supposed to be "worth something." I think the landscape of the hobby has to count for something. Junk wax then later in the 80's was another difference. Cards in the 1960's and earlier were perceived as scarce because nobody knew they were supposed to be worth anything, and threw them out. They were temporary ephemera. By the mid-80's, card manufacturers were overproducing everything one because it was selling, but two - it could be argued to counter what had happened earlier. Either way, history has shown us a dividing line between "junk" that hit it's apex in the early 90's and cards that came before it. The "junk" is not scarce by a longshot - even 30 years later.

When I was growing up in the hobby (1986 - about '94), many dealers considered "vintage" pre-1974, because that was when Topps went from packs in series to one single series. Later in the 90's, the definition kind of pesudo shifted to 1980, since that was the last year of Topps monopoly dominance.

Again, there is no one 100% correct definition. My point is that in 1976, many kids were still buying packs and flipping cards and carrying them around rubber-banded in their pockets. By 1986, many packs were being opened with the cards going straight into plastic, because by then everyone knew they were supposed to be worth something. That's a huge difference in hobby self-awareness. Today the more-or-less accepted definition of "vintage" on the internet and in trading groups seems to be 1980 and earlier. I would agree with that, and then keeping the "junk era" it's own separate thing, because the philosophy and facts about the cards of that era are just so unique. "Modern" to me refers to a time starting around the early 2000's or a bit before maybe, when card manufactures had realized their folly of the junk era, and had moved on to producing things like shiny numbered autos and parallels, making use of deliberate scarcity, and (also importantly) when they decided it was no big deal to totally price kids out of the hobby.

After posting I went back thru the thread a little more closely. This post is well thought out and makes sense.

I just wish the term "junk wax" used a word other than "junk". Sure I don't mind calling a lot of those late 80's designs junk since IMO they are mostly fugly, but the 90's saw some of the best designs ever as far as I'm concerned..... dozens of sets that are far from junk in my eyes, but then again I'm mostly looking at them from a "do I like that card" perspective, not a "is that so over-produced that it's worthless" perspective.