2021 HOF Ballot

Tabe · #1 01-01-2021, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D.

No disagreement from me that Wagner is the next in line by a solid margin. I think Nathan is next best candidate...but �the line� very well be between them.

I have a few Nathan cards in my PSA sub pile, though, just in case (but more Wagner cards�.

Are there other relievers I�m overlooking?

Francisco Rodriguez? Not that I'd vote for him either.

sreader3 · #2 01-02-2021, 07:03 PM

Todd Helton was a great fielding first baseman. While his range was about average, he was the best I ever saw at scooping bad throws out of the dirt -- an especially valuable skill at Coors Field where the afternoon sun is brutal. Also an incredibly tough out at the plate. Before his eye-hand went south in 2012, Todd would toy with pitchers, flicking his wrists and fouling balls off to create 10-12 pitch at bats at will before walking or doubling into the gap. By far the most professional combination hitter/fielder I ever had the privilege of watching in his hey day. Fewer strikeouts per plate appearance than Babe Ruth. Hell, Geoff Jenkins (who played six fewer years) K'ed more times than Todd. I hope he gets in.

(Edited to add: I love Scott Rolen as a player. But he struck-out in 19.1% of his at bats, compared to 14.8% for Helton. And he only drew 899 walks compared to 1335 for Helton. Tough for me to see how Rolen gets in and Helton gets left out, if that happens--which may happen).

Mike D. · #3 01-02-2021, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

Francisco Rodriguez? Not that I'd vote for him either.

What, that bum? He's got a losing W-L record for his career (52-53)

He's got the save total, although worth fewer WAR than either Wagner or Nathan, but yeah, he's probably in the conversation, especially at that level below Wagner.

If Jonathan Papelbon wasn't basically done at age 34, I think he'd have had a a chance...but hard to make the HOF with only 725 IP.

Tabe · #4 01-02-2021, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D.

What, that bum? He's got a losing W-L record for his career (52-53)

He's got the save total, although worth fewer WAR than either Wagner or Nathan, but yeah, he's probably in the conversation, especially at that level below Wagner.

If Jonathan Papelbon wasn't basically done at age 34, I think he'd have had a a chance...but hard to make the HOF with only 725 IP.

I mean, if we're putting in closers with five great or near-great seasons and lots of bad ones, like Eck, then Rodriguez is a lock.

toledo_mudhen · #5 01-03-2021, 05:50 AM

I have often wondered - Just Why Is It that Gil Hodges has never been enshrined? Did he like kill somebodies cat or something?

alaskapaul3 · #6 01-03-2021, 06:24 AM

There aren't any serious new 2021 guys , but Torii Hunter was a maniac in CF against that baggie.

I like when guys at least 'get the nod' for their second year of eligibility like Abreu and hopefully, Hunter.

Mike D. · #7 01-03-2021, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

I mean, if we're putting in closers with five great or near-great seasons and lots of bad ones, like Eck, then Rodriguez is a lock.

We�ll, Eckersley is a bit more than �just a closer who was dominant for 5 years�.

He did 150 games as a starter, and was kind of the prototype for the modern closer. Won a CY and an MVP. Then had a 5 non-dominant years as a closer that saw him save an additional 150 saves.

In total, it adds up to HOF...kind of a compiler with a dominant stretch.

As a total aside on Eck....I find it amusing that he�s a broadcaster now (and he�s actually REALLY good) - in the early 80�s if you told a Red Sox fan that two players from that era would be broadcasters, and that it�d be Eck and Rice, they�d throw you and your time machine right out of the Cask n Flaggin!

Tabe · #8 01-03-2021, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D.

We�ll, Eckersley is a bit more than �just a closer who was dominant for 5 years�.

He did 150 games as a starter, and was kind of the prototype for the modern closer. Won a CY and an MVP. Then had a 5 non-dominant years as a closer that saw him save an additional 150 saves.

In total, it adds up to HOF...kind of a compiler with a dominant stretch.

As a total aside on Eck....I find it amusing that he�s a broadcaster now (and he�s actually REALLY good) - in the early 80�s if you told a Red Sox fan that two players from that era would be broadcasters, and that it�d be Eck and Rice, they�d throw you and your time machine right out of the Cask n Flaggin!

Couple things:

1) His Cy and MVP were a joke. He wasn't even remotely deserving of either one.

2) Eck was elected because of his relief years. Period. And they simply weren't that good.

Mike D. · #9 01-04-2021, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

Couple things:

1) His Cy and MVP were a joke. He wasn't even remotely deserving of either one.

2) Eck was elected because of his relief years. Period. And they simply weren't that good.

Joke or not, he did win them. Sadly, players seldom get credit for awards they should have won or dinged for awards they shouldn�t have.

And if Eck got elected for just those 5 years, why not other relievers with 5 great years? Do you think the �first modern closer� thing was a big bump? Stanger things have happened!

Mike D. · #10 01-04-2021, 04:53 PM

Interestingly, Clemens had the highest pitching WAR in 1992, the year won his Cy Young (Messina was 2nd and also a deserving choice).

He also had the highest WAR in 1990, the year Bob Welch won (Clemens was 2nd, but led in WAR 10.4 vs 2.9).

So...he won 7 Cy Young awards, but should have won 2 more. Crazy!

Tabe · #11 01-04-2021, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Joke or not, he did win them. Sadly, players seldom get credit for awards they should have won or dinged for awards they shouldn�t have.

And if Eck got elected for just those 5 years, why not other relievers with 5 great years? Do you think the �first modern closer� thing was a big bump? Stanger things have happened!

There's no doubt he got in for being the "first modern closer". I don't see that as being worth much but the voters clearly did.

There's a LOT of guys who had 5 great years as relievers (I wouldn't say Eck even had 5...). That's kinda my whole point. His career as a reliever, at the end of the day, was nothing special.

h2oya311 · #12 01-05-2021, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D.

We’ll, Eckersley is a bit more than “just a closer who was dominant for 5 years”.

He did 150 games as a starter, and was kind of the prototype for the modern closer. Won a CY and an MVP. Then had a 5 non-dominant years as a closer that saw him save an additional 150 saves.

In total, it adds up to HOF...kind of a compiler with a dominant stretch.

As a total aside on Eck....I find it amusing that he’s a broadcaster now (and he’s actually REALLY good) - in the early 80’s if you told a Red Sox fan that two players from that era would be broadcasters, and that it’d be Eck and Rice, they’d throw you and your time machine right out of the Cask n Flaggin!

Awesome post! 100% agree. Eck had insane control, from what I recall. In fact, when Ron Shandler does fantasy baseball analysis of pitchers and they have a 6.0 or 7.0+ K/BB ratio and insane BPVs (base performance values), he notes that they are "Eck-like" or in "vintage Eck territory". Something to that effect.

Tabe · #13 01-05-2021, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Awesome post! 100% agree. Eck had insane control, from what I recall. In fact, when Ron Shandler does fantasy baseball analysis of pitchers and they have a 6.0 or 7.0+ K/BB ratio and insane BPVs (base performance values), he notes that they are "Eck-like" or in "vintage Eck territory". Something to that effect.

He had a couple amazing years but a career 3.25 K/BB is nothing special.

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