Pennant materials

[Hankphenom]

Some of my pennants. Coincidentally to the conversation, the green pennant in the first picture is the only Senators pennant--of which I have acquired a pretty good knowledge dealing in mostly Washington stuff for many years--that would fit the category of a possible Ad Flag or other repro. This example is made of a very thick, substantial material and with heavy paint. Whenever I would see this pennant at a dealer's table, more often than not it would be of a much stiffer material with thinner paint, and the argument raged over the years as to whether that version was some kind of repro, although they never looked brand new but with some age, at least. The information about Ad Flag and their later redos of earlier pennants would seem to have solved that mystery, but it needs a different and less pejorative tag than "repro." "Restrike," maybe?

[perezfan]

NICE!

How about a closer look at the D&M Die-cut Sign just below the Nationals Pennant? Would love to see it in larger detail.

As for dating pennants... there as many anomalies and contradictions as there are steadfast rules. After handling a few thousand of them, the reproductions stand out like a sore thumb.

Regarding the Packers Pennant... I have seen that same exact AdFlag game scene graphic utilized for 1960s teams. It looks earlier, but I agree the Packers version is circa late '50s. Apparently, AdFlag kept that template in their "files" for a long time.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by perezfan

NICE! How about a closer look at the D&M Die-cut Sign just below the Nationals Pennant? Would love to see it in larger detail.

This is a repro, made from the only known original by a friend of mine who worked for Xerox using their top equipment. My friend, Jack Pollard of Lynchburg, VA, for whom the term "advanced collector" was intended, had this on the floor of his basement, stuffed between filing cabinets containing his amazing card collection. He let me take it home and have a copy made, after which I reluctantly sent it back. Jack died about 15 years ago and this was auctioned off as part of his collection. It only went for a couple grand, which even back then seemed very low to me. Pinterest has a picture of it, presumable from the auction catalog, but I can't remember who auctioned it, maybe REA.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/363806476131663170/

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

This is a repro, made from the only known original by a friend of mine who worked for Xerox using their top equipment. My friend, Jack Pollard of Lynchburg, VA, for whom the term "advanced collector" was intended, had this on the floor of his basement, stuffed between filing cabinets containing his amazing card collection. He let me take it home and have a copy made, after which I reluctantly sent it back. Jack died about 15 years ago and this was auctioned off as part of his collection. It only went for a couple grand, which even back then seemed very low to me. Pinterest has a picture of it, presumable from the auction catalog, but I can't remember who auctioned it, maybe REA.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/363806476131663170/

Beautiful... if only we had a time machine! Thanks for posting the image and sorry for the derailment.

Back to vintage felt....

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Some of my pennants. Coincidentally to the conversation, the green pennant in the first picture is the only Senators pennant--of which I have acquired a pretty good knowledge dealing in mostly Washington stuff for many years--that would fit the category of a possible Ad Flag or other repro. This example is made of a very thick, substantial material and with heavy paint. Whenever I would see this pennant at a dealer's table, more often than not it would be of a much stiffer material with thinner paint, and the argument raged over the years as to whether that version was some kind of repro, although they never looked brand new but with some age, at least. The information about Ad Flag and their later redos of earlier pennants would seem to have solved that mystery, but it needs a different and less pejorative tag than "repro." "Restrike," maybe?

Hank, cool Washington pennants! Here are my favorites from the Senators ... (I’d have sent this as a DM but don’t see how to attach pics) ... I believe Mark has the incredibly awesome Clark Griffith pennant?

[ooo-ribay]

I do the “tapping” thing, too, but not on concrete or tile. Busted a few rigid holder tips, doing that.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I do the “tapping” thing, too, but not on concrete or tile. Busted a few rigid holder tips, doing that.

Me, too.

[perezfan]

Foxey Griff....

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Foxey Griff....

What a fantastic pennant, just beautiful ..

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Foxey Griff....

Foxey Griff is off the charts! The Philly pennant is gorgeous, too. In my pictures, you can see that I have an Ad Flag Senators version with white paint only, no tassles, etc. Maybe "knockoff" would be a good term for what Ad Flag did with these cheapy versions of more elaborate pennants done by others.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Hank, cool Washington pennants! Here are my favorites from the Senators ... (I’d have sent this as a DM but don’t see how to attach pics) ... I believe Mark has the incredibly awesome Clark Griffith pennant?

You had to do that, didn't you, Greg! Just kidding, those are fantastic for a D.C. guy, as is Mark's. The only thing that would top any of those is the Walter Johnson version of the 1924 pennant, which my friend Kent Feddeman snagged off eBay for $400 about 20 years and auctioned for 15K. To my knowledge, that's the only example known of that one, anyone know who has it?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

You had to do that, didn't you, Greg! Just kidding, those are fantastic for a D.C. guy, as is Mark's. The only thing that would top any of those is the Walter Johnson version of the 1924 pennant, which my friend Kent Feddeman snagged off eBay for $400 about 20 years and auctioned for 15K. To my knowledge, that's the only example known of that one, anyone know who has it?

Thanks Hank .. wow, $400? Amazing. I remember when it was auctioned for $15,000. I don’t recall seeing another like that one or like mine. The picture in the auction catalog showed a bunch like mine hanging at a celebration dinner.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Thanks Hank .. wow, $400? Amazing. I remember when it was auctioned for $15,000. I don’t recall seeing another like that one or like mine. The picture in the auction catalog showed a bunch like mine hanging at a celebration dinner.

Yours may be the only one known, as they might have been made only for the 1924 Washington banquet held before the World Series, where a few of them were on the wall. Or they might have been sold at the Series, but if so you would think there would be a few around. That picture of the 1924 banquet with your pennant, by the way, came from the 1925 banquet program, of which I have a copy.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Not that anyone might care, but Hank has brought up this Senators pennant on multiple occasions so I will elaborate a little. This pennant is from very late 50's to 60's. These are other baseball pennants that are from that same series and were produced at the same time. They all have the same characteristics, exact same pennant body material, same piping, etc. The "weight" of the felt is the same. That is what I am referring when I talk about how a pennant "feels".

The second photo shows other that I know are from that same series. The Green Bay Packers World Champions, Buffalo Bills, the Chicago Bears one with the quarterback throwing the ball to end zone, Denver Broncos brown pennant with yellow horse, and others. I believe the Dolphins one to be from that same series as well. I believe the Colts too could be from this same series, but i'm not 100% on this one.

The San Francisco pennant I believe to be earlier. Obviously we have all the this one and other similar ones like the Cleveland Browns, etc. Same maker, close to same time frame, but different series.

Lastly, the Chicago Bears one. This is an earlier style, with different felt. Different piping (often thicker and more supple) and stitching can vary.

When I look closer at the Packers pennant photo on my computer with a larger screen instead of my phone, it does appear to be a stiffer thinner felt. I had originally said 50's, but I could see this one be sold in the early 60's as well based on material used.

Many of these pennants were re-purposed with small added info or dates as they needed to fill a specific game or year. They also used most of the artwork scenes on multiple occasions over the years with multiple fabrics.

With that said, this version was also used earlier than 1960 and most of this style was produced with the earlier very supple felt that fell apart very easily when exposed to the elements. The earlier ones also seemed to "fall apart" a lot easier than the new felt like the ones I showed in the larger group. To me (at least for this maker which Kyle says is AdFlag) the make up of the pennant itself tells me a lot more about the date than the style. I don't get in to the makers like you guys do, I just like the visual attributes and designs of pennants from all sports.

People are free to disagree and say I have no idea what i'm talking about, and some already do. This information comes from buying and selling hundreds of pennants. The pennants I mentioned first in my postings are still some of the ones that I purchased from unsold vendor stock from people that used to sell at both Wrigley and Comiskey as well as County stadium in Milwaukee. Most of these groups are gone, but these are some of the last few from that specific purchase. A quick search of Ebay, I could pull another 10 plus styles in to this same group. Many of these pennants were in the same boxes they were packed in from the old days. Sorry I never took photos of any labeling on them. With that, i'm out.

[Duluth Eskimo]

One more thing I will add is that these were of the same group where it appeared that someone cut these by hand with a scissors. Some were perfectly cut, while other appears that a 6 yr old was helping grandpa make them in the garage (which may have been the case).

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Some of my pennants. Coincidentally to the conversation, the green pennant in the first picture is the only Senators pennant--of which I have acquired a pretty good knowledge dealing in mostly Washington stuff for many years--that would fit the category of a possible Ad Flag or other repro.

Hank, your green Washington Senators pennant is also by ADFLAG

[Domer05]

I agree with the collective sentiments of this thread: unless there's a date on the pennant, all you can do is make an educated guess as to when it was made. Thankfully, due to the work put-in by people on this thread, and the information we've been able to share with each other through forum's like N54, we can make much stronger guesses today. Egner's book started all of this. He got us out of the Dark Ages. Rob's terrific website built on that info and moved us into the Renaissance Era!

I personally do not put much stock in the type of material used when trying to identify a pennant's manufacturer. In my experience, most of the big producers during the 1940s through 1970 experimented with different substrates. Some of it was thick; some of it was thin. Some of it was plush; some of it was stiff. Although I think these characteristics are occasionally useful in dating a pennant ... it's hard for me to touch a pennant and say, "Yup, this feels like an ADFLAG." But that's just me.

For me, I put much more stock in re-occurring artwork; distinctive letter fonts; and of course, maker's marks. Another really useful indicator: the presence of tassels or not (some makers, like ADFLAG, never used tassels).

Finally, one last comment about pennant artwork not appearing period-appropriate.... In my observations, this was particularly common concerning football pennants. People see a 1960s ADFLAG pennant featuring a football player wearing a helmet, sans face mask ... so they conclude: "Ah ha, must be from the 1940s!" But not so fast.

Why? The artists that drew these scenes hated face masks. That's because single bar helmets, which players from that era may have been wearing, obscure the players' facial features, which the artist hoped to depict. The answer: remove the face masks from the helmet. Go back and look at the 1960s-era football pennants on Rob's site ... many convey the raw emotions of the player being depicted (looking tough, looking confident, looking jubilant, looking defeated, etc.). You wouldn't see any of this if it was covered by a face mask.

So, don't assume these pennants were reproductions. The artists just wanted to make their pennants more interesting, and that vintage look from yesteryear served that purpose.

[thetahat]

Kyle, I agree in the sense that I don’t think you can tell AD FLAG by feel, but I do think it’s pretty easy by sight. The artwork is ... unique.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I agree with the collective sentiments of this thread: unless there's a date on the pennant, all you can do is make an educated guess as to when it was made. Thankfully, due to the work put-in by people on this thread, and the information we've been able to share with each other through forum's like N54, we can make much stronger guesses today. Egner's book started all of this. He got us out of the Dark Ages. Rob's terrific website built on that info and moved us into the Renaissance Era!

I personally do not put much stock in the type of material used when trying to identify a pennant's manufacturer. In my experience, most of the big producers during the 1940s through 1970 experimented with different substrates. Some of it was thick; some of it was thin. Some of it was plush; some of it was stiff. Although I think these characteristics are occasionally useful in dating a pennant ... it's hard for me to touch a pennant and say, "Yup, this feels like an ADFLAG." But that's just me.

For me, I put much more stock in re-occurring artwork; distinctive letter fonts; and of course, maker's marks. Another really useful indicator: the presence of tassels or not (some makers, like ADFLAG, never used tassels).

Finally, one last comment about pennant artwork not appearing period-appropriate.... In my observations, this was particularly common concerning football pennants. People see a 1960s ADFLAG pennant featuring a football player wearing a helmet, sans face mask ... so they conclude: "Ah ha, must be from the 1940s!" But not so fast.

Why? The artists that drew these scenes hated face masks. That's because single bar helmets, which players from that era may have been wearing, obscure the players' facial features, which the artist hoped to depict. The answer: remove the face masks from the helmet. Go back and look at the 1960s-era football pennants on Rob's site ... many convey the raw emotions of the player being depicted (looking tough, looking confident, looking jubilant, looking defeated, etc.). You wouldn't see any of this if it was covered by a face mask.

So, don't assume these pennants were reproductions. The artists just wanted to make their pennants more interesting, and that vintage look from yesteryear served that purpose.

Great information, just the kind, along with other posts here, I was looking for. I'll have to check out Egner's website, it sounds like that's the place for the current state of pennant knowledge.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Hank, your green Washington Senators pennant is also by ADFLAG

That's what I figured. Based on the material and other factors, I believe it to be a 50s issue. There's another version, with thinner material and paint, they probably made in the 60s or so, as apparently they would do. If so, it wouldn't be accurate to call it a repro, more of a restrike by the same company using a more modern process.