Bursting Bubble

GeoPoto · #1 02-23-2021, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

I wonder how the Mariners President spouting off about how they have been abusing the rules to screw players out of money is going to affect the on going labor negotiations?

I don't understand how using "rules" that were collectively bargained is "abuse". In the negotiations both parties had things they wanted and things they were willing to give up. If the players "traded" the rules on arbitration, (which give clubs the option of bringing top players up quickly thereby getting the players production and starting arbitration early or delaying both) in order to obtain concessions (that the players placed greater value on) from the owners, why shouldn't teams use them however they see fit.

It seems completely rational for the players to restrict the compensation somewhat of the best (soon to be highest paid) players in exchange for benefits such as salary minimums, pension rules, etc. that benefit all players, including ones who will never approach the compensation levels achieved by the elite players.

Looking at the effect on elite prospects in isolation may make it appear that they are being "screwed" (paid less than they could have commanded without the arbitration eligibility "rules"), but if those rules were traded during negotiations for things that benefit all players, it may be a completely sensible trade-off that the negotiators of the CBA wanted and agreed to.

rats60 · #2 02-23-2021, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

I don't understand how using "rules" that were collectively bargained is "abuse". In the negotiations both parties had things they wanted and things they were willing to give up. If the players "traded" the rules on arbitration, (which give clubs the option of bringing top players up quickly thereby getting the players production and starting arbitration early or delaying both) in order to obtain concessions (that the players placed greater value on) from the owners, why shouldn't teams use them however they see fit.

It seems completely rational for the players to restrict the compensation somewhat of the best (soon to be highest paid) players in exchange for benefits such as salary minimums, pension rules, etc. that benefit all players, including ones who will never approach the compensation levels achieved by the elite players.

Looking at the effect on elite prospects in isolation may make it appear that they are being "screwed" (paid less than they could have commanded without the arbitration eligibility "rules"), but if those rules were traded during negotiations for things that benefit all players, it may be a completely sensible trade-off that the negotiators of the CBA wanted and agreed to.

You really don't think not using any prospects for a whole season because it was a shortened season isnt an abuse? Sure it is within the rules, but certainly not in the spirit of what was bargained. He admitted that they were deliberately holding back players so they wouldn't get fair market value. The players suspected this was going on and now have confirmation. It's not really any different than collusion in the 80s. I think the prospects of a strike just went way up. The only ones really losing are the fans.

GeoPoto · #3 02-23-2021, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

You really don't think not using any prospects for a whole season because it was a shortened season isnt an abuse? Sure it is within the rules, but certainly not in the spirit of what was bargained. He admitted that they were deliberately holding back players so they wouldn't get fair market value. The players suspected this was going on and now have confirmation. It's not really any different than collusion in the 80s. I think the prospects of a strike just went way up. The only ones really losing are the fans.

I don't know what "not in the spirit of what was bargained" means. The CBA establishes a framework that prevents teams from keeping players in the minors indefinitely. It establishes how much leeway teams have to manage when each player's clock toward arbitration and ultimately free agency begins. If it allows a team to do something at its sole discretion, why is it abuse when a team goes ahead and uses that discretion however it sees fit. It might be unwise, unfair to fans, etc. But not "abuse" of the players.

Again, the players primarily affected by this phenomena are the elite prospects who figure to make life-time security before their career is over. If it delays (for a year) a 9-figure contract for a handful of elite players in exchange for more generous minimums/benefits for players who may never see an 8-figure contract, it could easily be justified as beneficial to the union membership as a whole.

Your point about a strike might be valid. Union leadership might regret the trade-off they made last time in light of how the rules are used and might want a different deal; owner's might balk. His comments were unwise because they were unnecessary and may be used to inflame opinion going into negotiations, but "abuse" I don't get.

todeen · #4 02-24-2021, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

I don't know what "not in the spirit of what was bargained" means. The CBA establishes a framework that prevents teams from keeping players in the minors indefinitely. It establishes how much leeway teams have to manage when each player's clock toward arbitration and ultimately free agency begins. If it allows a team to do something at its sole discretion, why is it abuse when a team goes ahead and uses that discretion however it sees fit. It might be unwise, unfair to fans, etc. But not "abuse" of the players.

Again, the players primarily affected by this phenomena are the elite prospects who figure to make life-time security before their career is over. If it delays (for a year) a 9-figure contract for a handful of elite players in exchange for more generous minimums/benefits for players who may never see an 8-figure contract, it could easily be justified as beneficial to the union membership as a whole.

Your point about a strike might be valid. Union leadership might regret the trade-off they made last time in light of how the rules are used and might want a different deal; owner's might balk. His comments were unwise because they were unnecessary and may be used to inflame opinion going into negotiations, but "abuse" I don't get.

There's nothing wrong from your standpoint. I'm a union negotiator and sometimes hard decisions bite back in the wrong way. Next go round they become a priority. But as a fan, the Mariners are "suck d*** for crack" bad and refuse to bring up their name recognized prospects to bring fans into the stadium. It just means that these players will feel no guilt or remorse to stay in Seattle because their boss is a jerk who doesn't care and is willing to publicly run their name through the dirt.

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Mark17 · #5 02-24-2021, 02:29 AM

What caused the bubble to burst in the late 1980's, primarily, was that the card companies realized they could print huge amounts of money, so they kept the presses rolling and absolutely flooded the market. That's always going top be the danger with modern - there is nothing to stop card companies from continuing to crank out stuff. Unless they state something is a 1/1 they can make as much stuff as they want, even years after the original release. I remember buying 1987 Topps "cut" cases well into the middle of 1988 and being told by someone that those sheets were still being printed.

Even with the 1/1 concept, they can come up with different gimmicks to create dozens of 1/1s by making them different in some way - different photos, different border colors, whatever.

Bottom line, with this kind of crazy money being spent on modern, expect the card companies to start capitalizing on it.

Vintage, aside from the ever present counterfeit and doctoring threats, has a finite supply, save for the occasional "new to the hobby" find.

If I had any modern stuff that had gone crazy price-wise, I'd be dumping it. If I had any big ticket vintage that was moving up, I'd hang onto it awhile longer, maybe forever.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #6 02-24-2021, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

What caused the bubble to burst in the late 1980's, primarily, was that the card companies realized they could print huge amounts of money, so they kept the presses rolling and absolutely flooded the market.

I hear this all the time and it has always confused me. They didn't "flood the market" they met demand. Blaming them for the demand is bassackwards.

Card companies are basically printing companies. Even now they don't give a rip about the secondary market except in the most indirect way. They care about selling boxes, packs, and sets. If a 1/1 purple neon snowleopard autographed laser refractor sells a bunch of boxes today they don't care what it's worth tomorrow.

Hell, you can't even get Topps to protect their own intellectual property on Ebay and demand the counterfeits be removed. Coach, Tiffany, Micahel Kors all protect their property even though they don't make any money on the secondary market. The point being, all the card companies care about is selling cards TODAY. If they need 100,000 cases they're not printing 1,000,000 and "flooding the market."

Eggoman · #7 02-24-2021, 08:09 AM

I GOTTA agree with Scott!

I bought AND sold during that time and EVERYTHING was GREAT until the Collector/Investor/Get-Rich-Quick guys on one side of the Dealer's Table stopped buying from the Dealer/Investor/Get-Rich Quick guys on the other side of the table.

Before that, I could sell Junk Wax as fast as I could get it! Canseco Rookies, Benito Santiago, Mike Greenwell, Gregg Jefferies, Ripken FF cards, on and on and on... Baseball, Football, even Hockey & Hoops - it all sold as fast as I could replace it.

1987 Topps was EASY to get, but still sold GREAT! 1987 Fleer was HARD to get, but still sold GREAT!

Prices went up every week, every day...

But then, new product seemingly started coming out every week with all of the new companies joining in. It seemed to render Last Week's stuff nearly unsaleable.

I couldn't get rid of Last Week's product fast enough... Manufacturer's met demand so fast. Everyone got theirs and moved on to what was next... Inventory sat on the shelves, but I still bought NEW product.

Mark17 · #8 02-24-2021, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I hear this all the time and it has always confused me. They didn't "flood the market" they met demand. Blaming them for the demand is bassackwards.

That's true from the perspective of the card manufacturers. If they sold everything they printed, then they didn't "over-produce." They met demand, as you say, and there was insatiable demand.

I sold 100 card lots of single players back then, and several customers bought rookie cards by the 800 count box. One fellow in New York bought 4,500 each of about 40 different 1987 Topps cards from me, which was basically a 300 vending case custom sort. I always wondered what the end game was supposed to be, when a guy had 4,500 Wally Joyner or Mike Greenwell rookies. Some day find another buyer who wanted thousands of those guys' cards I guess.

So I'm not placing blame on card companies for printing and printing and printing cards in the late 1980s. What I'm saying is that tons and tons of the stuff was printed, making its long-term value impossible to sustain.

rats60 · #9 02-24-2021, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

I don't know what "not in the spirit of what was bargained" means. The CBA establishes a framework that prevents teams from keeping players in the minors indefinitely. It establishes how much leeway teams have to manage when each player's clock toward arbitration and ultimately free agency begins. If it allows a team to do something at its sole discretion, why is it abuse when a team goes ahead and uses that discretion however it sees fit. It might be unwise, unfair to fans, etc. But not "abuse" of the players.

Again, the players primarily affected by this phenomena are the elite prospects who figure to make life-time security before their career is over. If it delays (for a year) a 9-figure contract for a handful of elite players in exchange for more generous minimums/benefits for players who may never see an 8-figure contract, it could easily be justified as beneficial to the union membership as a whole.

Your point about a strike might be valid. Union leadership might regret the trade-off they made last time in light of how the rules are used and might want a different deal; owner's might balk. His comments were unwise because they were unnecessary and may be used to inflame opinion going into negotiations, but "abuse" I don't get.

I was taught to treat others like you want to be treated. If you don't see what is wrong with this, then I don't know what else to say. A player works hard for an organization and when he is ready for the majors, he doesn't get the promotion to the majors that he deserves. Kris Bryant was a perfect example of this. When you treat people like that, you lose your integrity.

mq711 · #10 02-24-2021, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

I was taught to treat others like you want to be treated. If you don't see what is wrong with this, then I don't know what else to say. A player works hard for an organization and when he is ready for the majors, he doesn't get the promotion to the majors that he deserves. Kris Bryant was a perfect example of this. When you treat people like that, you lose your integrity.

Of course the Nationals brought up Harper and Rendon a little early and as soon as they could they left; even though they were offered nice contracts to stay inDC. Unfortunately it�s all a business now and everyone is in it for themselves.

Tabe · #11 02-24-2021, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

I don't know what "not in the spirit of what was bargained" means. The CBA establishes a framework that prevents teams from keeping players in the minors indefinitely. It establishes how much leeway teams have to manage when each player's clock toward arbitration and ultimately free agency begins. If it allows a team to do something at its sole discretion, why is it abuse when a team goes ahead and uses that discretion however it sees fit. It might be unwise, unfair to fans, etc. But not "abuse" of the players.

It's abuse because the teams aren't making decisions that are best for the product they're putting on the field. They are intentionally not bringing up major-league-ready players to save money. Tanking is, and always will be, unethical. Yes, it makes fiscal sense for the team. Yes, it's "allowed". But it's definitely abusive to not bring up a player simply because you don't want to pay him.

Jim F · #12 02-24-2021, 01:24 PM

The bubble or no bubble argument can be had all day and trying to time a market is tough.
#1 rule if you are worried about anything being in bubble territory
-- You can't go broke taking profit!! ---

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