Cross Registry

[DanP]

I had almost the exact same idea, except why wouldn’t SGC, BGS, HGA and/or CSG do it?

The PSA registry is what really sets them apart from everyone else.

However, I guess they would have to admit that an SGC 10 = PSA 9 and that will never happen.

Great idea. I guess it would need to be an outside party as you noted.

[hcv123]

Really best executed by one of the existing grading companies and a 10 is a 10 is a 10.

I am perplexed that one of them hasn't realized the primary reason PSA is the market leader is solely due to the registry (imho).

I have more amazing ideas as to how one of the existing grading companies could actually use this to significantly enhance their own business.

[Republicaninmass]

I think it's a great idea. Does psa allow, but just for tracking not competition, add raw or other graders?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I think it's a great idea. Does psa allow, but just for tracking not competition, add raw or other graders?

Yes, you can add cards to your account that are in other holders or raw, in order to keep track of what you have.

[JollyElm]

I would assess it this way, regarding any effort to whittle away PSA's registry 'hold'...

If an elephant sees the grass moving, he will stomp it.

[chadeast]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

I would assess it this way, regarding any effort to whittle away PSA's registry 'hold'...

If an elephant sees the grass moving, he will stomp it.

Or buy it if it's successful enough.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by hcv123

Really best executed by one of the existing grading companies and a 10 is a 10 is a 10.

I am perplexed that one of them hasn't realized the primary reason PSA is the market leader is solely due to the registry (imho).

I have more amazing ideas as to how one of the existing grading companies could actually use this to significantly enhance their own business.

And then all the cards in a given set would need to be crossed over to that specific TPG, and THEY would thus have the collector by the kahunas.

I'm pro-collector and would love to see a bunch of guys on this site, with someone like Leon in the lead, launch a TPG-independent registry, with the collector in mind - not just another method for a TPG to grab a stranglehold and additional revenue stream.

If some guys from this site banded together, formed an LLC, launched a new, multi-TPG graded registry, it would exist as a free-floating (i.e. independent) entity from the TPG companies. There would be a symbionic relationship with net54 of course, to the benefit of all, with this site promoting the registry and the registry promoting this site, and advertisers on both benefiting similarly.

When you suggest another registry owned by a different TPG company, you're suggesting the collecting community bow down to another dominating master.

I'm suggesting liberation from that paradigm.

[steve B]

To work well, it would probably require access to each included companies database. I can't imagine PSA allowing it since a big piece of what keeps them at the top is the prices driven by the registry.

Many databases are probably either unavailable, or no longer exist. GAI? Plus how many other defunct companies.

The idea is a really good one, but I'm not seeing it operating easily like a grading companies own registry.

Rather than make a straight grade translation what I think would work better would be weighting the grade based on both the card and the grading company, with a little flexibility for stuff the company would have most likely gotten right.

Like my Delong graded by Acu-Card. It says it's a 7, but it's trimmed. My impression of Acu-Card is that they could get the authenticity right, but couldn't tell about alterations. So I might weight all Acu-Card grades at the bottom while giving PSA, SGC Beckett etc the top of the weighting scale.

A way to track cards known to be altered or clear mistakes would be good too. Like all the stuff outed as trimmed on blowout being automatically considered an "A" and noted as such.

A good feature would be including ungraded cards as well.

Lots of work to make it a real working thing, and I'm not really seeing how to even make it pay for itself unless you get enough traction to charge grading companies a fee to integrate their database. And that brings up a bunch of conflict questions, like a new sketchy grading company paying for inclusion to buy some legitimacy.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by steve B

To work well, it would probably require access to each included companies database. I can't imagine PSA allowing it since a big piece of what keeps them at the top is the prices driven by the registry.

Many databases are probably either unavailable, or no longer exist. GAI? Plus how many other defunct companies.

The idea is a really good one, but I'm not seeing it operating easily like a grading companies own registry.

Rather than make a straight grade translation what I think would work better would be weighting the grade based on both the card and the grading company, with a little flexibility for stuff the company would have most likely gotten right.

Like my Delong graded by Acu-Card. It says it's a 7, but it's trimmed. My impression of Acu-Card is that they could get the authenticity right, but couldn't tell about alterations. So I might weight all Acu-Card grades at the bottom while giving PSA, SGC Beckett etc the top of the weighting scale.

A way to track cards known to be altered or clear mistakes would be good too. Like all the stuff outed as trimmed on blowout being automatically considered an "A" and noted as such.

A good feature would be including ungraded cards as well.

Lots of work to make it a real working thing, and I'm not really seeing how to even make it pay for itself unless you get enough traction to charge grading companies a fee to integrate their database. And that brings up a bunch of conflict questions, like a new sketchy grading company paying for inclusion to buy some legitimacy.

I wasn't thinking about population reports, because in my opinion they are highly problematic, considering all the cards cracked out for resubmitting, and cards cracked out because collectors prefer them that way.

I'm talking about collectors who have completed sets and want to have their accomplishment recognized and compared to other similar completed sets. So they pay some fee, submit proof of the cards they own (maybe something simple like video of their cards on top of a current dated newspaper,) and then their cards are entered into the registry database for that set.

So, you wouldn't need any data from any TPG company - the only data you'd be dealing with would be what was voluntarily submitted by collectors who wished to have their cards and set recorded in the registry.

Yes, minds better than mine would need to figure out the weighted formulas to standardize grades of the different TPG companies, whether some TPG companies are even reliable enough to include, and weighing how much more the Mantle counts vs. a common... stuff like that would all need to be decided.

As to cost and profitability, look at it this way. Suppose someone has a set that is 90% graded PSA, but the rest are BVG or SGC, including a few high dollar cards. Currently, if this guy wants his set in the PSA registry he has to get all those non-PSA cards re-graded.

1. How much will that cost?
2. Will those cards cross at the same grade or be assigned lower grades?
3. How long will the wait time be?

That adds up to a ton of money, time, and some risk. With the Cross Registry, no re-grading is necessary, unless they are in slabs of unreliable TPG, in which case they can be re-submitted to any legit TPG for grading.

A new LLC setting up such a registry could charge a few hundred dollars to register a set and still save the collector thousands. After awhile, with general acceptance, AHs would be listing complete sets with references such as being #12 on the Net54 Cross Registry (or whatever it's called.)

It would involve some work no doubt, but the benefits would be huge, and zero cooperation or data would be required or even wanted from any TPG or anyone else, besides the collectors who chose to pay the fee and register their sets.

[dstudeba]

It's coming on Monday.

Originally Posted by Mark17

A new LLC setting up such a registry could charge a few hundred dollars to register a set and still save the collector thousands.

I am afraid that you severely overestimate the propensity for collectors to spend money on anything besides cards.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

It's coming on Monday.



I am afraid that you severely overestimate the propensity for collectors to spend money on anything besides cards.

Is that why grading companies are backlogged for months, especially PSA (with their precious registry?) If people will stand in line for months to collectively pay hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of dollars to grade their cards, the high-rollers who complete quality sets will pay a few hundred to have that set, in its entirety, graded.

[DanP]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

It's coming on Monday.



I am afraid that you severely overestimate the propensity for collectors to spend money on anything besides cards.

I spend a lot of $ on binders, display cases, etc. etc. I believe many collectors, especially high-end (not saying I'm one of them) will spend $ to show off their collection.

I have recently managed the development of three apps. I have 40+ years of software development background. I would be interested in participating in such a venture. How could SGC, BGS, etc. not be interested in investing a little $ to make this happen? If can only help them.

[steve B]

Those are some interesting thoughts.
While I enjoyed my very minor participation in SGCs registry years ago, and yes, it felt weird to be interested in seeing my one or two cards added bringing me from like 70th to 65th, I hadn't considered anyone paying anything beyond the grading fees to use the registry.

I wouldn't be in at a few hundred a set, but I could see some people being into it that much. (I'm not even sure I'd be in at a few dollars a set, I'm cheap)

One thing I have learned being here, is that way more people than I would have ever imagined are obsessed with consistency, having the cards all be the same grade, in the same version of the same companies holder... Totally not me, I'm happy to just "finish" a set and have most of the nice cards in some sort of holder. Stuff is getting pricy enough I may have to buy a couple cases of penny sleeves for the P-F cards.

I wasn't thinking of pop reports either. Just that having some ability to automate by checking with the database like the serial number lookup feature does would prevent a ton of data entry costs.

Originally Posted by Mark17

I wasn't thinking about population reports, because in my opinion they are highly problematic, considering all the cards cracked out for resubmitting, and cards cracked out because collectors prefer them that way.

I'm talking about collectors who have completed sets and want to have their accomplishment recognized and compared to other similar completed sets. So they pay some fee, submit proof of the cards they own (maybe something simple like video of their cards on top of a current dated newspaper,) and then their cards are entered into the registry database for that set.

So, you wouldn't need any data from any TPG company - the only data you'd be dealing with would be what was voluntarily submitted by collectors who wished to have their cards and set recorded in the registry.

Yes, minds better than mine would need to figure out the weighted formulas to standardize grades of the different TPG companies, whether some TPG companies are even reliable enough to include, and weighing how much more the Mantle counts vs. a common... stuff like that would all need to be decided.

As to cost and profitability, look at it this way. Suppose someone has a set that is 90% graded PSA, but the rest are BVG or SGC, including a few high dollar cards. Currently, if this guy wants his set in the PSA registry he has to get all those non-PSA cards re-graded.

1. How much will that cost?
2. Will those cards cross at the same grade or be assigned lower grades?
3. How long will the wait time be?

That adds up to a ton of money, time, and some risk. With the Cross Registry, no re-grading is necessary, unless they are in slabs of unreliable TPG, in which case they can be re-submitted to any legit TPG for grading.

A new LLC setting up such a registry could charge a few hundred dollars to register a set and still save the collector thousands. After awhile, with general acceptance, AHs would be listing complete sets with references such as being #12 on the Net54 Cross Registry (or whatever it's called.)

It would involve some work no doubt, but the benefits would be huge, and zero cooperation or data would be required or even wanted from any TPG or anyone else, besides the collectors who chose to pay the fee and register their sets.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by steve B

Those are some interesting thoughts.
While I enjoyed my very minor participation in SGCs registry years ago, and yes, it felt weird to be interested in seeing my one or two cards added bringing me from like 70th to 65th, I hadn't considered anyone paying anything beyond the grading fees to use the registry.

I wouldn't be in at a few hundred a set, but I could see some people being into it that much. (I'm not even sure I'd be in at a few dollars a set, I'm cheap)

One thing I have learned being here, is that way more people than I would have ever imagined are obsessed with consistency, having the cards all be the same grade, in the same version of the same companies holder... Totally not me, I'm happy to just "finish" a set and have most of the nice cards in some sort of holder. Stuff is getting pricy enough I may have to buy a couple cases of penny sleeves for the P-F cards.

I wasn't thinking of pop reports either. Just that having some ability to automate by checking with the database like the serial number lookup feature does would prevent a ton of data entry costs.

It's certainly true that the set registry isn't everybody's thing. But I've heard it said so many times that PSA's set registry is what gives them such a huge market advantage, that I figure there's a market for an independent registry that can be used for any legit TPG. A collector could still have cards from only one TPG if they want, but there would be the option to mix and match cards from different, reputable TPGs.

Here's how I envision it working, to illustrate the value to the collector:

Someone is working on a higher grade 1966 Topps set. It takes them a few years of buying the best, yet affordable, examples of each card. This means picking up nice cards regardless if PSA, SGC, or BVG. They are buying the card, not the holder, but they do want them slabbed with some assurance of authenticity. Finally their set is complete, and they want to "show it off," so to speak, and list it among other 1966 Topps sets to see just where it stands. Maybe with a few upgrades it can move up the ladder a few rungs.

So they go to the Registry site and it works like this:

1. They pay the fee (which covers the data entry costs, website development and hosting, plus some profit to the registry owners)
2. They submit proof of ownership of the cards in their set
3. They give their set a moniker for the registry. For example "Mas Takela."

4. Their cards are entered into the database. Fields included are:

Set (1966 Topps)
Name (Mas Takela)
Card_number (50)
Card_Name (Mickey Mantle)
TPG (BVG)
TPG_Grade (6)
TPG_Cert_Number

From a technical, data modeling perspective, several of the fields above, particularly the first 2, would use surrogate keys to reference another table. With further thought, more fields might also be useful.

Then the Registry sends an email to the collector, saying his set is now in the database, and his current ranking is #12 among 1966 Topps sets.

The collector has fun upgrading it here and there, moving up the ladder a bit, but having other sets upgrade past his, sort of like a slow-moving horse race, and one day he decides it's time to sell it. So he consigns to an AH.

Currently, when an AH sells a complete set, they list the grading details of the key cards, and then some general description of the other 500 cards in the set, like 50% PSA 6, 35% PSA 5, etc.

But with this new registry, the AH describes the key cards and then adds: This set is currently #12 on the Net54 Cross Registry, listed as Mas Takela.

Here's where the value comes in. Prospective bidders go to the Registry site, select 1966 Topps, look down the list to the 12th row where the Mas Takela entry is, click on that name, and a data dump of all the cards in this specific set display. They can see, for every card in the set, all the fields listed above - TPG, its TPG grade, and cert number.

So, let's say a prospective bidder already has a near complete, mint, run of high numbers, and he sees this set is weak in that area but strong everywhere else. This is a great upgrade opportunity for him. Or, like Steve says, lets suppose someone much prefers a particular TPG. They can see how many, and specifically which cards, are thus slabbed.

And then, when somebody wins the set at auction, they can compare each card's cert number to the Registry, to be assured they are receiving precisely the set they were bidding on, down to each common. Of course, the AH would do the same verification before listing it.

When someone wants to upgrade cards in their registry set, they aren't slaves to a specific TPG. If PSA has 8 month wait times and price increases, they can submit to a different TPG if they want. It's their choice to use the same TPG for all their cards, or not. It is, after all, their set.

An added outcome is that it increases competition among TPG in terms of their pricing and service (wait times) and that is good for the collector. If PSA has a monopoly on set registries, breaking that monopoly is good for collectors.

[hcv123]

I would think PSA, SGC and Becket are in for sure, other companies would need to be vetted.