Grading Technical vs. Overall Appeal

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Couldn't disagree more. Grading is about the condition of the card, not the price. The open market determines the price. If a 2 sells for more than a 5 it just means the collector values it more. Not that it is higher grade. The parameters can't keep changing through time based on the market. If it did then yesterday's 5 that was based on condition wouldn't be the same a today's 5 that is based on eye appeal. The end user needs to actually look at the card and determine for themselves if they like the appeal better than another card. It's not up the grader to tell me what card looks better, just which one is in better physical condition based on their standard of grading. That way they are all comparable. You have to buy the card, not the holder. So leave it up to me which one I think is better and tell me what flaws the cardboard has.

It's been said before that if a card came out of a pack with poor registration then that doesn't bring the grade down. It's how it left the factory. So it can still be mint and be out of focus. Do I like that 8 better than the lesser condition but clearer registration 5, maybe not. But some registry guy who is into the number might. I'm about the cards, not the number grade.

The part highlighted in bold is a nonsensical double-standard....

Grossly off-centered cards also "left the factory" that way. Why penalize off-center, but not out of focus or poorly registered cards? At least when it's off-center you can still clearly see the image. With off-register cards, you can't see anything but fuzzy images.

Again.... who made up these random and idiotic rules? It's not like "The Ten Commandments" written by God, and having stood for centuries. TPG has been around for about 2 1/2 decades, and the time has come to clean it up.

I am actually hoping that one of the new TPG entries blows up the whole thing, and offers up a better grading system which actually makes sense and rewards cards with better aesthetics. They may not capture the current registry fanatics, but they could carve out a very nice niche for true collectors.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The part highlighted in bold is a nonsensical double-standard....

Grossly off-centered cards also "left the factory" that way. Why penalize off-center, but not out of focus or poorly registered cards? At least when it's off-center you can still clearly see the image. With off-register cards, you can't see anything but fuzzy images.

Again.... who made up these random and idiotic rules? It's not like "The Ten Commandments" written by God, and having stood for centuries. TPG has been around for about 2 1/2 decades, and the time has come to clean it up.

I am actually hoping that one of the new TPG entries blows up the whole thing, and offers up a better grading system which actually makes sense and rewards cards with better aesthetics. They may not capture the current registry fanatics, but they could carve out a very nice niche for true collectors.

Again, I can see if the card is off center myself. Then in that case it would sell for less than a similarly graded card that was centered.

With so many cards already graded using those random and idiotic rules, changing the rules now makes all the previously graded cards obsolete and they would all have to be regraded based on the new standards. Why can we just look at the card and decide for ourselves what we are willing to pay for it?

Edited to add: I'm not a graded card guy just for the record, I just like the discussion we are having. And, I am a "true collector", whatever that means.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Again, I can see if the card is off center myself. Then in that case it would sell for less than a similarly graded card that was centered.

With so many cards already graded using those random and idiotic rules, changing the rules now makes all the previously graded cards obsolete and they would all have to be regraded based on the new standards. Why can we just look at the card and decide for ourselves what we are willing to pay for it?

Edited to add: I'm not a graded card guy just for the record, I just like the discussion we are having. And, I am a "true collector", whatever that means.

Yup, it's a good discussion and I respect your opinion....just a healthy disagreement. You will win the argument since history and money are both on your side, so I know that I fight a losing battle...

That said, regarding the part in bold...

1. I think you meant to say "why can't we just look at the card..."

2. My answer is that we can (and do). But doesn't that pretty much render the entire concept of grading to be obsolete and/or useless? I think that most collectors (if we were to start over from scratch) would prefer a grading system that accurately reflects the true condition and appeal of the card. Otherwise, what's the point?

[Casey2296]

I love buying cards with overwhelming eye appeal that are punished by the graders for one reason or another. It gives me a chance to afford a card that I would otherwise be priced out of like a Red or Green Cobb, etc. While the "buy the number" guys are concentrating on the grade I can find some nice deals on the lower graded examples that fit my parameters. Making a run tonight at a particular card graded "2" due to 2 soft corners but has the eye appeal of a "4". We'll see how it works out.

[Delray Vintage]

While it is true we collectors ultimately set the prices paid, grading is or was supposed to be a way of helping to set a value. That is why PSA has its price guide by grade and is successful because they have made grading an expensive card necessary to sell it. The idea of grading is to give collectors a way to compare the net rating of a card and be able to gauge value based on the grade.

The idea that collectors paying more for a lower grade is a problem for grading companies. If SMR is to be believed then the grade highly determines a price. So if many collectors would choose to pay more for a well centered Mantle 4 over a 70/30 centered Mantle 6 then what is the purpose of the grade? It says to me that PSA and SGC are under valuing centering and other aesthetics compared to how defined are the corners.

I understand all the folks here who say the grade is just an assessment of certain parameters and we choose what we like. However if those parameters are seen as less important by collectors it is time to reassess those parameters.

[Exhibitman]

Eye appeal should be the most important element of it for a collector. Who wants a FUGLY card with a silly slab # on it just because it has the slab# on it? Makes no sense to me...



Yeah, that tiny spec of paper loss on the back justifies that grade.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by Delray Vintage

While it is true we collectors ultimately set the prices paid, grading is or was supposed to be a way of helping to set a value. That is why PSA has its price guide by grade and is successful because they have made grading an expensive card necessary to sell it. The idea of grading is to give collectors a way to compare the net rating of a card and be able to gauge value based on the grade.

The idea that collectors paying more for a lower grade is a problem for grading companies. If SMR is to be believed then the grade highly determines a price. So if many collectors would choose to pay more for a well centered Mantle 4 over a 70/30 centered Mantle 6 then what is the purpose of the grade? It says to me that PSA and SGC are under valuing centering and other aesthetics compared to how defined are the corners.

I understand all the folks here who say the grade is just an assessment of certain parameters and we choose what we like. However if those parameters are seen as less important by collectors it is time to reassess those parameters.

The SMR is useless as a price guide and has been a joke for years. Sales history and ended auction prices are what you should use. And even then you need to evaluate the actual card sold to determine if was a really nice example or not. Don't just look at the grade and think they are all the same.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

The SMR is useless as a price guide and has been a joke for years. Sales history and ended auction prices are what you should use. And even then you need to evaluate the actual card sold to determine if was a really nice example or not. Don't just look at the grade and think they are all the same.

Also need to evaluate the seller and decide whether card was shilled or not.

[3-2-count]

Agree that the Psa baggie is horrid on Leon's Red Cobby, but disagree that it should be cracked out due to the 1.5 grade affecting the cards presentation.

In my opinion it makes the card just that much more special being that its unique. Leave it as is Leon, I love it. Great card......

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by 3-2-count

Agree that the Psa baggie is horrid on Leon's Red Cobby, but disagree that it should be cracked out due to the 1.5 grade affecting the cards presentation.

In my opinion it makes the card just that much more special being that its unique. Leave it as is Leon, I love it. Great card......

It's cards like this that make me wonder why people pay so much to get someone else's opinion about the condition of a card. Any explanation you can give as to why this is a 1.5?

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by jayshum

It's cards like this that make me wonder why people pay so much to get someone else's opinion about the condition of a card. Any explanation you can give as to why this is a 1.5?

Yeah, that one's a head scratcher for sure.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Edited to add: I'm not a graded card guy just for the record, I just like the discussion we are having. And, I am a "true collector", whatever that means.

Sorry... there are all types of collectors, and no right or wrong when it comes to peoples' preferences.

What I meant by "true collector" is someone who collects the card for what it is. Not a number collector that lives/dies by a machine-generated slab. I guess I should've said "traditional" collector instead of "true" collector.... I apologize!

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yup, it's a good discussion and I respect your opinion....just a healthy disagreement. You will win the argument since history and money are both on your side, so I know that I fight a losing battle...

That said, regarding the part in bold...

1. I think you meant to say "why can't we just look at the card..."

2. My answer is that we can (and do). But doesn't that pretty much render the entire concept of grading to be obsolete and/or useless? I think that most collectors (if we were to start over from scratch) would prefer a grading system that accurately reflects the true condition and appeal of the card. Otherwise, what's the point?

1. Correct, I meant can't instead of can.
2. Not going to argue on this point. I think we can both agree that grading is a sh!itshow these days no matter how you look at it. I just didn't agree originally with the idea that grading was meant to make prices standard. Or something like that. I just really think we as collectors set the market based on how we feel a card is graded when we look at it, not based on the number. Although these days the number seems to mean quite a bit to the investors.

Originally Posted by perezfan

Sorry... there are all types of collectors, and no right or wrong when it comes to peoples' preferences.

What I meant by "true collector" is someone who collects the card for what it is. Not a number collector that lives/dies by a machine-generated slab. I guess I should've said "traditional" collector instead of "true" collector.... I apologize!

No worries, I knew what you meant, just wanted say I think I am a "traditional" collector like you meant.

[JollyElm]

One man's cardboard is another man's poison.