Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction

[benjulmag]

Because of the staggering legal expense to bring a lawsuit and see it through -- a proposition at the end of the day after all appeals have been exhausted easily well into six-figures and likely reaching seven figures -- unless and until slabbed altered cards stop holding their value, who will have the financial motivation to bring such an action? PSA would regard such a lawsuit as an existential threat given its contingent liabilities IMO materially exceed its net worth and the case would probably drag on for years. And even if someone brought such an action as a matter of principal, if PSA acted rationally they would quietly make good on the guaranty, resell the cards on the open market and then return to business as normal.

To me this means that in order for anything constructive to happen from the civil perspective, either a new TPG grading company as I described earlier in this thread needs to enter the fray, or the whining not only needs to continue but needs to escalate. Maybe then in time the press will begin to cover this other side of the hobby, and if so maybe enough trepidation will begin to set in among individuals and funds about whether slabbed cards will hold their value. Then maybe the demand for such cards will begin to fall, and the market forces necessary for such a lawsuit to be rationally and successfully brought will come into play.

A lot of maybes, I agree, but to quote Peter, "maybe it's just tilting at windmills and won't end up doing any good at all but it feels to me better than the alternative of just saying eff it."

[Johnny630]

If this can be done with such ease on CJ Cards that are over 100 years old imagine what is being done to all the modern cards. Ugh.... this probably isn't even scratching the surface.

[jchcollins]

At what point does alteration with cards become acceptable in the way it has with vintage comics? The problem in grading between the two hobbies (at least as I understand it; I don't know a ton about comics besides my lower grade raw collection of vintage MAD magazines...) is that the card hobby is still trying in many cases to put over altered cards as unaltered in numbered, regular slabs. Whereas with comics it's more acceptable for pages to be restored, etc. I get that a trading card is different than a comic in that it's just one piece of ephemera, not multiple pages stapled together. But at some point if this just keeps happening, would it not make sense to treat them the same? I know that "restored" comics go for less than true high grade unaltered, but in our hobby it's kind of the same thing already. A lightly trimmed Mantle card in an A holder that appears NM or better to the naked eye still isn't going to be cheap, if you know what I mean - even if it doesn't sell for the same heights as a truly unaltered PSA 7.

I see both sides of the argument. If we don't complain, "whine" about it, then the skulduggery aspect of this on the card side is unlikely to change. However, it's unlikely to change in reality based on what we have seen over the past 3-5 years anyway, isn't it? So is our only real hangup that we have this deception aspect of grading in our hobby where some other types of collectibles have moved on from that?

Me personally, I'm basically too small time to make a difference. I enjoy mid-to lower grade postwar vintage on a budget, for the most part. I've gotten pissed at graders (mostly SGC) lately, but more to do with their defective slabs and yo-yo pricing models. From here on out, I will likely be focusing mainly on lower grade, raw vintage from sellers that I have already grown to trust online. That way I figure both prices and risk of alteration can remain low. I would agree we are in a very odd place in the hobby with this as an issue right now...

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

At what point does alteration with cards become acceptable ...?

... I see both sides of the argument.

Never

and

There is only one side to the "argument". Either a card is altered or it is not altered, the opinion of the opinion seller has no bearing on that fact and has been proven time and again to be no better or worse than those of many of us, except that they just get paid more for theirs, even when it's shown to be wrong.

And yes Mark17, I'm re-stating my sentiment, much of which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplishing probably nothing.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Never

and

There is only one side to the "argument". Either a card is altered or it is not altered, the opinion of the opinion seller has no bearing on that fact and has been proven time and again to be no better or worse than those of many of us, except that they just get paid more for theirs, even when it's shown to be wrong.

And yes Mark17, I'm re-stating my sentiment, much of which we all agree on, in a new thread every few days accomplishing probably nothing.

I meant "acceptable" in terms of the card that's altered being properly labeled as such. Alteration is acceptable already today to some collectors who seek out "A" slabs either due to the fact that they are more affordable, or otherwise somehow have a fit in their collection.

I would think we would all like to agree that altered cards in numbered slabs is a bad thing, but my point in saying what you quoted was if in time, if altered or restored as is used in the comic hobby filters over more to cards, will this somehow reduce the rate of altered cards fraudulently getting into numbered slabs? It may not, but that's what I was questioning.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I meant "acceptable" in terms of the card that's altered being properly labeled as such. Alteration is acceptable already today to some collectors who seek out "A" slabs either due to the fact that they are more affordable, or otherwise somehow have a fit in their collection.

I would think we would all like to agree that altered cards in numbered slabs is a bad thing, but my point in saying what you quoted was if in time, if altered or restored as is used in the comic hobby filters over more to cards, will this somehow reduce the rate of altered cards fraudulently getting into numbered slabs? It may not, but that's what I was questioning.

I highly doubt it would help. The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I highly doubt it would help. The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

It would sicken you over the years how many times I've heard I don't what was done to the card if it's in a holder with a number grade.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

And if this continues to be the sole goal, I don't see this as a problem going away anytime soon, if ever. Those who are making noise about this on the regular are in the relative minority when you look at who is buying and stockpiling valuable vintage slabs.

One of those things I think that is certainly not ideal, but reality.

[Arazi4442]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I highly doubt it would help. The goal is to get the card in a numbered slab for a large monetary gain.

I posted earlier in this thread but I’ll repeat because it seems to apply here. If the graders are under trained/ uninformed/ incompetent then maybe you could see some changes and improvements made in the grading process. If, however, they are simply corrupt (handing out grades to high volume submitters, etc.) that’s a different story.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I meant "acceptable" in terms of the card that's altered being properly labeled as such...

The opinion sellers have already shown themselves to be incapable of determining if a card has been altered at all, hence this thread, what makes you think they will ever be able to differentiate specific issues?

AND

How many people who worship at the altar of the slab would pay for such opinions, and after receiving them, keep the card in the slab?

Doug "It's laughable, so I laugh" Goodman

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

The opinion sellers have already shown themselves to be incapable of determining if a card has been altered at all, hence this thread, what makes you think they will ever be able to differentiate specific issues?

AND

How many people who worship at the alter of the slab would pay for such opinions, and after receiving them, keep the card in the slab?

Doug "It's laughable, so I laugh" Goodman

The "alter" of the slab. Are you a bad speller or is that a brilliant pun?

[JK]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

If this can be done with such ease on CJ Cards that are over 100 years old imagine what is being done to all the modern cards. Ugh.... this probably isn't even scratching the surface.

I've often wondered this myself. I don't collect or submit much in the way of modern cards, but it is nevertheless amazing to me that I have never once submitted a well centered, pack fresh, modern card with four sharp corners and no obvious issues that has received a grade higher than a 9.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JK

I've often wondered this myself. I don't collect or submit much in the way of modern cards, but it is nevertheless amazing to me that I have never once submitted a well centered, pack fresh, modern card with four sharp corners and no obvious issues that has received a grade higher than a 9.

That may not be representative. Last year just out of boredom I busted open a couple of boxes of 2018 product and submitted the better rookie cards, and a friend of mine did the same, and I think we got at least half PSA 10s.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So far, according to a guy keeping score.

An accounting so far:

27 trimmed/altered 1915 Cracker Jacks in SGC holders. All of them graded 8, 8.5 , or 9 except for three.

Two cards of Walter Johnson. Three cards of Honus Wagner. Two cards of Christy Mathewson. Two cards of Joe Jackson. One card of Ty Cobb. 15 total members of the Hall of Fame.

Total approximate value if sold today: $1.6 million.