Fraud in the hobby

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Like Bill Mastro, Doug Allen, John Rogers etc.? Didn't see much in the way of sobering up.

Yeah, I'm not sure broadly speaking how much people who commit crimes are ever deterred by punishment to others. I think it may be inherent in the fraudster's character to think he is smarter and will get away with it.

Parenthetically, for me anyhow, talking to people with no apparent ethics (as I have in this hobby) can be downright disturbing. But it does give you insight into their character and conduct.

[Johnny630]

I believe the card doctors get a thrill over coning people.....this will never stop.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I believe the card doctors get a thrill over coning people.....this will never stop.

What's really galling is how some will con people who consider them friends. But this is the way of the criminal I suppose.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What's really galling is how some will con people who consider them friends. But this is the way of the criminal I suppose.

Agree ! It’s so slime ball ! I believe what goes around comes around, being honest and fair with people has always suited me well.

[Tao_Moko]

Bitching about fraudulent practices that impact your hobby shouldn't mean you have to leave it. What sense does that make? Those who expose it are doing a service to the hobby.

[dio]

There is fraud in wall street
Basically everything in this world there is fraud if there's money involve

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by dio

There is fraud in wall street
Basically everything in this world there is fraud if there's money involve

I agree. Just watched the documentary on WeWorks.

Guy was charged with an incredible fraud and walked away with a severance of $1.8 billion.

[rainier2004]

I dont know, we have all been worried about fraud since I started collecting 37 years ago. But the hobby has changed so much since then, its hard to compare times. I would bring up the possibility that TPGs have just increased fraud and not limited it in any way. And today is the same as 37 years ago, if you dont enjoy collecting whatever your focus is anymore you find something else...but eventually you rn out of things to shift to.

But TPGs have given a a false sense of security to collectors. People do not spend the time holding the cards and browsing thru them like we used to when shows were every weekend. You always bought beaters to educate yourself with, dip that toe into the water before taking the plunge. But these steps are skipped now with all the holders, same holders that prevent a "collector" from feeling a card, its thickness, texture and even smell. Now people drops 10's and 100's of thousands of dollars within months of entering.

The best way to defend yourself is still educating yourself. Blindly trusting a TPG with this much money just seems odd to me. And no, they arent the best at grading and detecting worked cards. People that have sat at home with their loupes, scan a card at 1200 dpi, handled 100s of the issue are just as good if not better. I handled 2-3000 CJs thru the years, I dont need a TPG to tell me what to look for.

But if the worry of fraud becomes to much then its just time to go and that sucks...but we should still be educating ourselves. If you dont know reach out to a member, super easy way to make a hobby buddy and very rarely has that person not responded to me. Its just part of it, a fun part of IMO.

[glchen]

Since I am back to the hobby in 2010, there has been fraud in the hobby. Whether it's shill bidding, counterfeits, etc, it's been everywhere. I think it's still really important to know what's going on and trying to educate yourself as much as possible, so that you can make the best decisions on what to buy and whether what you are buying is the item that you are expecting it to be. You can still enjoy the hobby with all that going. Frankly for me, I'm more discouraged by the crazy prices going on than the fraud. The fraud I can try to avoid, but the prices is more difficult. It's like when I was a kid when I couldn't afford a lot of stuff that I wanted to buy.

Originally Posted by dio

There is fraud in wall street
Basically everything in this world there is fraud if there's money involve

Yep, just watch American Greed. A whole TV series built on stories of fraud. Bill Mastro was on one episode. It's a shame we have so much an annual TV series can be made from the stories.

[Johnny630]

Does anyone really think the card doctors/fraudsters could, yet alone be charged but be found guilty by a jury of their peers ?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Wimberleycardcollector

Yep, just watch American Greed. A whole TV series built on stories of fraud. Bill Maestro was on one episode. It's a shame we have so much an annual TV series can be made from the stories.

Since we are in "spell check mode" it's actually Mastro, as opposed to the guy pictured below...

But agree with your point. John Rogers was also more recently featured on American Greed. Next year's episode should be quite interesting, with far too many potential candidates to speculate who'll be the "star". The frontrunners are Moser, Huigens and Orlando. But Forman, Heritage and the Phantom Cracker Jack Butcher might be primed for a late run.

Stay tuned!

Originally Posted by Wimberleycardcollector

Yep, just watch American Greed. A whole TV series built on stories of fraud. Bill Mastro was on one episode. It's a shame we have so much an annual TV series can be made from the stories.

Corrected for those who find joy in pointing out other people's mistakes.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

Bitching about fraudulent practices that impact your hobby shouldn't mean you have to leave it. What sense does that make? Those who expose it are doing a service to the hobby.

But when you shake your fist at others and say constantly "how stupid are you guys to stay involved with this bullshit" . . . at the same time that you stay involved with it all . . . that's the part I struggle with . . .

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

But when you shake your fist at others and say constantly "how stupid are you guys to stay involved with this bullshit" . . . at the same time that you stay involved with it all . . . that's the part I struggle with . . .

Stop struggling. People are inherently assholes. Look at all the dickwads around you..... Flip, flop, pop. You try and tell them it's a billion dollar fraud (which we all know it is) and not only do you/they want to argue about it, you want to support the known criminals. I just have always found it fascinating.

It's no skin off of my ass but it does affect me like a festering boil somewhat. Itches and hurts for a while but then it pops. It's mostly funny as I watch America deteriorate. I could give 3 shits about it. Like others, if I can help 1 person not get scammed it's all worth it. Much like I felt about calling out autograph forgers and other losers trying to game the system. Just a bad gene pool a piss poor upbringing. I feel bad for the honest guy trying to make it of which there are many here including yourself. I have 10 lifelong friends I have beers with every 2 weeks. Many of us have our own business making 100's of thousands per year. Guess how many of the guys try and fuck other people? ZERO. Guess how many guys try and pick up the bill? All of them.

I love the way the cards look and what can be done to them. Please Forgive me if I just don't like people getting rich off of scamming others. I made my fortuney the old fashioned way with out fucking people and with integrity. I was taught to try and stand for something and to try and help others. I just try to enjoy the hobby I loved for 50 years. So don't struggle, really...I don't lose a minute of sleep and continue to enjoy what I have been blessed to collect over the years. While trying not to take it too far up the ass by the multi level shysters "investors" in the "Business". Good luck to you and enjoy!

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Stop struggling. People are inherently assholes. Look at all the dickwads around you..... Flip, flop, pop. You try and tell them it's a billion dollar fraud (which we all know it is) and not only do you/they want to argue about it, you want to support the known criminals. I just have always found it fascinating.

It's no skin off of my ass but it does affect me like a festering boil somewhat. Itches and hurts for a while but then it pops. It's mostly funny as I watch America deteriorate. I could give 3 shits about it. Like others, if I can help 1 person not get scammed it's all worth it. Much like I felt about calling out autograph forgers and other losers trying to game the system. Just a bad gene pool a piss poor upbringing. I feel bad for the honest guy trying to make it of which there are many here including yourself. I have 10 lifelong friends I have beers with every 2 weeks. Many of us have our own business making 100's of thousands per year. Guess how many of the guys try and fuck other people? ZERO. Guess how many guys try and pick up the bill? All of them.

I love the way the cards look and what can be done to them. Please Forgive me if I just don't like people getting rich off of scamming others. I made my fortuney the old fashioned way with out fucking people and with integrity. I was taught to try and stand for something and to try and help others. I just try to enjoy the hobby I loved for 50 years. So don't struggle, really...I don't lose a minute of sleep and continue to enjoy what I have been blessed to collect over the years. While trying not to take it too far up the ass by the multi level shysters "investors" in the "Business". Good luck to you and enjoy!

What he said.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Many of us have our own business making 100's of thousands per year. Guess how many of the guys try and fuck other people? ZERO. Guess how many guys try and pick up the bill? All of them.

That's very real.

I went to a hydraulics convention, mostly to get a certification as they were doing the class/testing there.

Boss sent me with a company card saying "be responsible with it, but buy a round or two"
Sat at a table with 10 guys, more than half of them company owners or executives at a large company. First round comes, 11 cards hit the table.
The guy who was a VP of a big company picked them all up, handed his to the waitress and stacked the others. I think in order by company size and whether the person was an owner.
Looked at me and asked if it was my first time with a company card.
"yes"
"Ok, then this means something to you"
And he put mine on top of the stack for the next round.

That was the only time they let me buy the round all week, except for one time when it was all employees at the table.

Great bunch of people, and we just happened to have a common industry and not much more.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

But when you shake your fist at others and say constantly "how stupid are you guys to stay involved with this bullshit" . . . at the same time that you stay involved with it all . . . that's the part I struggle with . . .

I've had cards graded in the past, not many, but some of my nicer/better ones. Mostly because someday my kids or wife will probably sell them, and assuming the grading still gets respect, they'll do much better.
SGC only for ones I sent in. But I've also bought a handful of cards from other companies.

I saw some stuff a few years ago that made me really not want to continue send in cards in and support companies I didn't think were honest.

But recently, there's some stuff I'm considering selling, and the price difference is big enough to make a real difference to me. So maybe?
It's still hard, or I'd have already done it.

I have pretty much moved away from the grading aspect.

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

But when you shake your fist at others and say constantly "how stupid are you guys to stay involved with this bullshit" . . . at the same time that you stay involved with it all . . . that's the part I struggle with . . .

I hear you and don't disagree when it comes to supporting tpg's and auction houses found party to fraud. My collection suffers because I don't pay premiums for graded cards, or bid in most auctions(including many on ebay). Graded cards rarely make it 30 minutes in my possession before being busted. But, passion isn't normally accompanied by complacency. If my Marines and Sailors weren't bitching then something was wrong.

[Exhibitman]

Bottom line: most of the people I meet are good folks who enjoy similar interests and are fun to socialize with, and I still enjoy my collection. When that is not the case, I will walk away. Until then, I just try to steer clear of the worst aspects and worst asshats in the hobby.