Hey, pennant guys

erikc21 · #1 04-25-2021, 09:07 AM

Thanks, guys. I don�t know if you all agree, but finding rare pennants or �good deals� seems harder and harder. Now, if I only had a display like Jordan!

Any examples of similar pennants to the Phillies and Browns series?

thetahat · #2 04-25-2021, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikc21

Thanks, guys. I don�t know if you all agree, but finding rare pennants or �good deals� seems harder and harder. Now, if I only had a display like Jordan!

Any examples of similar pennants to the Phillies and Browns series?

Here are a couple more ...

thetahat · #3 04-27-2021, 08:55 AM

Have a question, but first this nice addition, got a good deal for it. Tigers had such cool pennants and I loved how they often show the year. Also it is the first 1940-dated pennant for me. It led me to write down the pennants I have with years/dates ... my oldest dated pennant is from 1913, and I have at least one from 1939 through 1969 now, with the exception of 1952 and 1953. It then occurred to me ... I don’t think I’ve seen any dated pennants of any type from 1952 or 53. No dated scroll pennants, and I don’t think there are any WS pennants that denote these years. The Tigers dated their pennants up to 1951, I believe.

Anyone have a 1952 or 1953 dated baseball pennant? Curious ...

perezfan · #4 04-27-2021, 11:24 AM

There is a 1952 dated scroll pennant for the Brooklyn Dodgers with the Clown mascot. But like so many others, I sold it a few years back. One of about 25 that I really regret selling.

thetahat · #5 04-27-2021, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

There is a 1952 dated scroll pennant for the Brooklyn Dodgers with the Clown mascot. But like so many others, I sold it a few years back. One of about 25 that I really regret selling.

Ugh yes I have the 1952, forgot about it! So that leaves 1953 as the missing link. (Three upper tassels on this one!)

UKCardGuy · #6 04-27-2021, 12:30 PM

I'm also partial to pennants with a date.

I recently picked up this 1957 Braves pennant. It's not the rarest but the condition was pretty good and the price was right.

thetahat · #7 04-27-2021, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I'm also partial to pennants with a date.

I recently picked up this 1957 Braves pennant. It's not the rarest but the condition was pretty good and the price was right.

Nice one, and a cool design. I like pennants with different ways of displaying player names besides the standard scroll.

Okay who knows what the oldest known scroll pennant is? My guess is the 1939 WS pennant, I think Mark owns it ....

perezfan · #8 04-27-2021, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat

Have a question, but first this nice addition, got a good deal for it. Tigers had such cool pennants and I loved how they often show the year. Also it is the first 1940-dated pennant for me. It led me to write down the pennants I have with years/dates ... my oldest dated pennant is from 1913, and I have at least one from 1939 through 1969 now, with the exception of 1952 and 1953. It then occurred to me ... I don’t think I’ve seen any dated pennants of any type from 1952 or 53. No dated scroll pennants, and I don’t think there are any WS pennants that denote these years. The Tigers dated their pennants up to 1951, I believe.

Anyone have a 1952 or 1953 dated baseball pennant? Curious ...

Nice pickup Greg... I sold that one too, a few months ago.

Amazing that you got a good deal on it.... prices are climbing fast, and seems impossible to win anything these days. Congrats- it's a beauty.

Hankphenom · #9 04-27-2021, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat

Have a question, but first this nice addition, got a good deal for it. Tigers had such cool pennants and I loved how they often show the year. Also it is the first 1940-dated pennant for me. It led me to write down the pennants I have with years/dates ... my oldest dated pennant is from 1913, and I have at least one from 1939 through 1969 now, with the exception of 1952 and 1953. It then occurred to me ... I don�t think I�ve seen any dated pennants of any type from 1952 or 53. No dated scroll pennants, and I don�t think there are any WS pennants that denote these years. The Tigers dated their pennants up to 1951, I believe. Anyone have a 1952 or 1953 dated baseball pennant? Curious ...

Amazing graphics! Replicating Cobb's charge into the stands to pummel a disabled heckler, perhaps?

MK · #10 04-27-2021, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat

Have a question, but first this nice addition, got a good deal for it. Tigers had such cool pennants and I loved how they often show the year. Also it is the first 1940-dated pennant for me. It led me to write down the pennants I have with years/dates ... my oldest dated pennant is from 1913, and I have at least one from 1939 through 1969 now, with the exception of 1952 and 1953. It then occurred to me ... I don�t think I�ve seen any dated pennants of any type from 1952 or 53. No dated scroll pennants, and I don�t think there are any WS pennants that denote these years. The Tigers dated their pennants up to 1951, I believe.

Anyone have a 1952 or 1953 dated baseball pennant? Curious ...

Would this be the oldest dated pennant?

thetahat · #11 04-27-2021, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MK

Would this be the oldest dated pennant?

Might be! Is that �06 or �08?

MK · #12 04-27-2021, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat

Might be! Is that �06 or �08?

�08

Domer05 · #13 04-27-2021, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MK

Would this be the oldest dated pennant?

Mike: How was this '08 Cubs pennant made? Sewed letter, or screen printed?

MK · #14 04-28-2021, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05

Mike: How was this '08 Cubs pennant made? Sewed letter, or screen printed?

I don�t own it so I can�t say. I stole this photo from Heritage Auctions.

perezfan · #15 04-28-2021, 12:30 PM

The 1939 Double Scroll Pennant sold for $900 + $157.50 (the 17.5% BP). Total price realized was $1,057.50

The Brooklyn Pennant sold for $2,000 + $350 (the 17.5% BP). Total price realized was $2,350

Prices realized do not include sales tax and shipping.

thetahat · #16 04-28-2021, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05

Mike: How was this '08 Cubs pennant made? Sewed letter, or screen printed?

Would be interesting to know, my understanding is that screenprinting wasn�t commercial until the early 1910s ....

thetahat · #17 05-01-2021, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikc21

Thanks, guys. I don�t know if you all agree, but finding rare pennants or �good deals� seems harder and harder. Now, if I only had a display like Jordan!

Any examples of similar pennants to the Phillies and Browns series?

Here�s another pennant that seems to be from the same manufacturer, based on the texture of the screened letters. Boring but rare pennant

ooo-ribay · #18 05-01-2021, 12:17 PM

Have "we" (Domer) established who made these? I have quite a few variations with "overlapping" characteristics. I'm pretty sure the batter in the big ball was previously done as a Brooklyn pennant.

BTW - my BIL PDF'ed Kyle's blog into a 349 page

document. I can't imagine what the copy center will want to print it in color. Let me see if it's worthwhile and I could probably send it to anyone who wants a copy. I envision a binder, with tabs for each manufacturer.

thetahat · #19 05-01-2021, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Have "we" (Domer) established who made these? I have quite a few variations with "overlapping" characteristics. I'm pretty sure the batter in the big ball was previously done as a Brooklyn pennant.

BTW - my BIL PDF'ed Kyle's blog into a 349 page

document. I can't imagine what the copy center will want to print it in color. Let me see if it's worthwhile and I could probably send it to anyone who wants a copy. I envision a binder, with tabs for each manufacturer.

I think they fit the mold of those pennants that were displayed in that banquet picture someone posted awhile back, although these Giants pennants may be older. I believe the batter graphic is the same as that on the Phillies pennant.

Domer05 · #20 05-02-2021, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Have "we" (Domer) established who made these? I have quite a few variations with "overlapping" characteristics. I'm pretty sure the batter in the big ball was previously done as a Brooklyn pennant.

I'm certain the first one is by Trench. Trench definitely used that quirky font in the 1950s. And, that baseball/moon-lit batter artwork is a known Trench design, too. We know it was used by Trench ca. 1950--Rick Levy found/posted a 1949 photo documenting this fact. I've seen it on many a Brooklyn Dodger pennant; but, never on a post-1958 Los Angeles Dodgers pennant. It was always monochrome when used on Brooklyn pennants. It was also used on some Yankees and Phillies pennants from what I assume to be the same era. Of note: the Phillies pennant was polychrome.

Interestingly, there's no New York Giants pennant featuring this moon-lit batter artwork; only San Francisco.

As to the others, the problem, for me, is that those latter SF Giants pennants in your evolution don't really look anything like what Trench was making for other teams in the 1960s--especially as concerns stadium pennants. The coloring, in particular, looks like it was applied with water colors, or a very translucent ink. It's also quite vibrant. Most likely these are by Trench, too; but ... I guess you couldn't exclude a copy cat by some bay area pennant maker that only made Giants pennants, right?

I just can't think of other Trench-made baseball pennants from the 1960s that resemble these....

ooo-ribay · #21 05-02-2021, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05

I'm certain the first one is by Trench. Trench definitely used that quirky font in the 1950s. And, that baseball/moon-lit batter artwork is a known Trench design, too. We know it was used by Trench ca. 1950--Rick Levy found/posted a 1949 photo documenting this fact. I've seen it on many a Brooklyn Dodger pennant; but, never on a post-1958 Los Angeles Dodgers pennant. It was always monochrome when used on Brooklyn pennants. It was also used on some Yankees and Phillies pennants from what I assume to be the same era. Of note: the Phillies pennant was polychrome.

Interestingly, there's no New York Giants pennant featuring this moon-lit batter artwork; only San Francisco.

As to the others, the problem, for me, is that those latter SF Giants pennants in your evolution don't really look anything like what Trench was making for other teams in the 1960s--especially as concerns stadium pennants. The coloring, in particular, looks like it was applied with water colors, or a very translucent ink. It's also quite vibrant. Most likely these are by Trench, too; but ... I guess you couldn't exclude a copy cat by some bay area pennant maker that only made Giants pennants, right?

I just can't think of other Trench-made baseball pennants from the 1960s that resemble these....

Thanks, Kyle. Someday, if I'm feeling ambitious, I should add a "maker" column to my pennant spreadsheet(s).

Djcmac1 · #22 05-11-2021, 01:59 PM

Hello here�s that pic.

perezfan · #23 05-11-2021, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djcmac1

Hello here�s that pic.

Always loved that one.... a 1960s classic!

Welcome, and hoping to see more of your "stuff" as we move along!

UKCardGuy · #24 05-12-2021, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djcmac1

Hello here�s that pic.

Welcome to Net54. Nice Orioles Pennant. Here's another Orioles pennant that I picked up recently.

perezfan · #25 05-02-2021, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05

I'm certain the first one is by Trench. Trench definitely used that quirky font in the 1950s. And, that baseball/moon-lit batter artwork is a known Trench design, too. We know it was used by Trench ca. 1950--Rick Levy found/posted a 1949 photo documenting this fact. I've seen it on many a Brooklyn Dodger pennant; but, never on a post-1958 Los Angeles Dodgers pennant. It was always monochrome when used on Brooklyn pennants. It was also used on some Yankees and Phillies pennants from what I assume to be the same era. Of note: the Phillies pennant was polychrome.

Interestingly, there's no New York Giants pennant featuring this moon-lit batter artwork; only San Francisco.

As to the others, the problem, for me, is that those latter SF Giants pennants in your evolution don't really look anything like what Trench was making for other teams in the 1960s--especially as concerns stadium pennants. The coloring, in particular, looks like it was applied with water colors, or a very translucent ink. It's also quite vibrant. Most likely these are by Trench, too; but ... I guess you couldn't exclude a copy cat by some bay area pennant maker that only made Giants pennants, right?

I just can't think of other Trench-made baseball pennants from the 1960s that resemble these....

I have always thought that those funky off-colored Giants Pennants were made by a local Northern Cal or Independent manufacturer. As you stated... no other teams had designs or colors even slightly resembling those early '60s Candlestick pennants. They are completely unique to the Giants.

thetahat · #26 05-02-2021, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

I have always thought that those funky off-colored Giants Pennants were made by a local Northern Cal or Independent manufacturer. As you stated... no other teams had designs or colors even slightly resembling those early '60s Candlestick pennants. They are completely unique to the Giants.

IMO first one likely not Trench, primarily due to the construction of the pennant. Wide spine, and the white thread that doesn�t match is something I haven�t seen from other known Trench pennants. Also the tassels look very different. The font also resembles that of the following pennants, if I had to guess I�d say it�s from this company that produced these in the pic here and also those pictures in post 4432.

ooo-ribay · #27 05-02-2021, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat

IMO first one likely not Trench, primarily due to the construction of the pennant. Wide spine, and the white thread that doesn�t match is something I haven�t seen from other known Trench pennants. Also the tassels look very different. The font also resembles that of the following pennants, if I had to guess I�d say it�s from this company that produced these in the pic here and also those pictures in post 4432.

Why couldn�t every maker just put damn labels on their pennants???

erikc21 · #28 05-02-2021, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat

Here�s another pennant that seems to be from the same manufacturer, based on the texture of the screened letters. Boring but rare pennant

The Browns one does appear to have very similar font. Besides the football player + stars, do you all think the font and the �dots� after the city/name resemble the Browns or Phillies?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ooo-ribay · #29 05-02-2021, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikc21

The Browns one does appear to have very similar font. Besides the football player + stars, do you all think the font and the �dots� after the city/name resemble the Browns or Phillies?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I do. Without a doubt (or dot).

Fballguy · #30 05-02-2021, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikc21

The Browns one does appear to have very similar font. Besides the football player + stars, do you all think the font and the �dots� after the city/name resemble the Browns or Phillies?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think you might be onto something Erik.

thetahat · #31 05-02-2021, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikc21

The Browns one does appear to have very similar font. Besides the football player + stars, do you all think the font and the ‘dots’ after the city/name resemble the Browns or Phillies?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Interesting! Erik, does the paint have the rough texture like in this pic? Hopefully you can see it, it has a fine grid-like pattern to it. That seems to be unique to pennants of this type.

erikc21 · #32 05-02-2021, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat

Interesting! Erik, does the paint have the rough texture like in this pic? Hopefully you can see it, it has a fine grid-like pattern to it. That seems to be unique to pennants of this type.

Here are some closeups I took - looks similar to me!

ooo-ribay · #33 05-02-2021, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikc21

Here are some closeups I took - looks similar to me!

Trying to figure out the process that would leave that texture.....

Interesting, for sure.

Domer05 · #34 05-02-2021, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetahat

Interesting! Erik, does the paint have the rough texture like in this pic? Hopefully you can see it, it has a fine grid-like pattern to it. That seems to be unique to pennants of this type.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't put too much stock in the texture of screen printed graphics. That "fine grid-like pattern" you reference is the mesh imprint from the stencil carrier. Every maker used these. Some are more pronounced on the final product because, depending on the detail of the design being reproduced, the screen printer would use screens with different mesh counts. This one just looks like they used a coarse screen with a low mesh count.

I printed my "LA Dodgers v. SF Giants "1st. GAME" Pennant (1958)" (https://pennantfactory.weebly.com/bl...e-pennant-1958) using a screen with a mesh count of 160. Anything less than this and the detail of the bridge wouldn't have come out. But for simple designs, like large, block letters with no detail--a lower mesh count will suffice, e.g., 110. Lower mesh counts permit more ink to pass through the screen, resulting in brighter, more opaque graphics.

There's many variables when screen printing a pennant: mesh count of screen used; substrate used (wool, wool blend, or Duvetyne); ink used (lead or non-lead). Within each manufacturer, I'd expect to see evidence of these variables from one design to the next. Therefore, I don't really think each maker had a consistent "screen printing signature" you can use for ID'ing one company from the next. With pennants, that works for things like hand writing, letter scripts, and original artwork used on a piece; but, not so much for screen printing.

With one exception: secondary color applications. The way that each maker added colors to their white underbase during the manufacturing process
did differ. Some used really dull inks (Trench, ADFLAG); others used fluorescent Day-Glo inks (WGN, HANCO).

thetahat · #35 05-03-2021, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domer05

For what it's worth, I wouldn't put too much stock in the texture of screen printed graphics. That "fine grid-like pattern" you reference is the mesh imprint from the stencil carrier. Every maker used these. Some are more pronounced on the final product because, depending on the detail of the design being reproduced, the screen printer would use screens with different mesh counts. This one just looks like they used a coarse screen with a low mesh count.

I printed my "LA Dodgers v. SF Giants "1st. GAME" Pennant (1958)" (https://pennantfactory.weebly.com/bl...e-pennant-1958) using a screen with a mesh count of 160. Anything less than this and the detail of the bridge wouldn't have come out. But for simple designs, like large, block letters with no detail--a lower mesh count will suffice, e.g., 110. Lower mesh counts permit more ink to pass through the screen, resulting in brighter, more opaque graphics.

There's many variables when screen printing a pennant: mesh count of screen used; substrate used (wool, wool blend, or Duvetyne); ink used (lead or non-lead). Within each manufacturer, I'd expect to see evidence of these variables from one design to the next. Therefore, I don't really think each maker had a consistent "screen printing signature" you can use for ID'ing one company from the next. With pennants, that works for things like hand writing, letter scripts, and original artwork used on a piece; but, not so much for screen printing.

With one exception: secondary color applications. The way that each maker added colors to their white underbase during the manufacturing process
did differ. Some used really dull inks (Trench, ADFLAG); others used fluorescent Day-Glo inks (WGN, HANCO).

That�s interesting and it makes sense, but it still seems as if mesh count varies more among manufacturers than within. (Need to perform an ANOVA ... lol.) I only notice this low mesh count on this one style ... not on any of my known Trench or Keezer or even those from the WGN baseball series. ... either way, good stuff

ooo-ribay · #36 05-03-2021, 06:31 PM

I have a PDF of Kyle's blog. The copy center quoted me $108 to print it in color

. I'm having it printed in black and white for about 20 bucks. If anyone wants a copy, I can send it in a ZIP file. Hit me up at ddgrh8r@gmail.com

Some of you may be able to use company ink...

Domer05 · #37 05-02-2021, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikc21

The Browns one does appear to have very similar font. Besides the football player + stars, do you all think the font and the �dots� after the city/name resemble the Browns or Phillies?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Erick, your Eagles pennant is by WGN. Totally sweet design.

I think you're making a good case Greg's St. Louis Browns pennant may be by them, too.

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