Let's talk about "over-looked" true Rookie cards....Pre-war and early Post-war

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

The Federal League is counted as a major league by MLB, also by Baseball-Reference and basically every other compiler of statistics readily available. I'm not sure that it SHOULD be but it is universally recognized as a major league. Further, I'm not aware of any significant players whose rookie card is a federal league card, or of federal league cards from 1913, so I'm not sure this is relevant anyways.

It would be everyone's Federal League rookie card.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

It would be everyone's Federal League rookie card.

So Frank Robinson has a National league rookie card and an American League rookie card? I suppose this can be technically so (just as every player has a "rookie card with X team" or any other qualifier one wants to add on), but I don't think this is a definition used by anyone or relevant to the discussion here.

[packs]

Well, no. The American League and National League are part of the same league. The Federal League, though I guess considered a major league, was still an entirely different league.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Well, no. The American League and National League are part of the same league. The Federal League, though I guess considered a major league, was still an entirely different league.

This is not correct, they are not part of the same league. The American and National Leagues remain separate leagues to this day. They began to cooperate a bit in 1903, they remained separate. The National Commission had little power, the commissioner's office was only created in 1920. The American and National leagues even then remained separate legal entities until 2000, and remain as 2 different playing leagues to this day.

The American and National Leagues are not the only recognized Major Leagues. That a player's rookie is dependent on each major league is not a standard I have ever heard before. If it is to be a standard, it should be made the same across the board; if 3 Finger Brown now has a Federal League rookie card in Crack Jack, then Frank Robinson has 2 rookies as well.

This is an odd line to draw.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Most of the focus here has been on what a "rookie" means. This gets much more difficult at least for prewar if one focuses on the question what is a "card."

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Most of the focus here has been on what a "rookie" means. This gets much more difficult at least for prewar if one focuses on the question what is a "card."

I love the Socratic, start with defining what we mean, both "rookie" and "card".

I would start by proposing: A collectible trading card is a cardboard-stock item, dominated by an image, made with an intent to distribute in some way, whose image is not intended to be separated from the rest of the card and does not have pages.

Which is to say it must be card stock of some kind, must not be a sticker, and must be made with some intent of distribution to exempt home-made items that could never be catalogued or checklisted and exist in unlimited supply and type. Me gluing a photo of Barry Zito to construction paper doesn't make it a collectible card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I love the Socratic, start with defining what we mean, both "rookie" and "card".

I would start by proposing: A collectible trading card is a cardboard-stock item, dominated by an image, made with an intent to distribute in some way, whose image is not intended to be separated from the rest of the card and does not have pages.

Which is to say it must be card stock of some kind, must not be a sticker, and must be made with some intent of distribution to exempt home-made items that could never be catalogued or checklisted and exist in unlimited supply and type. Me gluing a photo of Barry Zito to construction paper doesn't make it a collectible card.

You just busted up half the soccer rookie cards out there by saying no stickers.

There have been endless discussions of card definition over the years here.

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

This is not correct, they are not part of the same league. The American and National Leagues remain separate leagues to this day. They began to cooperate a bit in 1903, they remained separate. The National Commission had little power, the commissioner's office was only created in 1920. The American and National leagues even then remained separate legal entities until 2000, and remain as 2 different playing leagues to this day.

The American and National Leagues are not the only recognized Major Leagues. That a player's rookie is dependent on each major league is not a standard I have ever heard before. If it is to be a standard, it should be made the same across the board; if 3 Finger Brown now has a Federal League rookie card in Crack Jack, then Frank Robinson has 2 rookies as well.

This is an odd line to draw.

If you say so. The Federal League was a separate league as evidenced by it's own champion and non-competition against major league baseball.

The American League champion played the National League champion in both 1914 and 1915 because those teams were part of major league baseball, or the same league.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

If you say so. The Federal League was a separate league as evidenced by it's own champion and non-competition against major league baseball.

The American League champion played the National League champion in both 1914 and 1915 because those teams were part of major league baseball, or the same league.

Major League Baseball is not a single league, the American League and the National League constitute the current MLB umbrella organization that is composed of these two leagues. This umbrella organization did not exist at all until 1903, and remained fairly toothless for quite some time after that. The Federal League has been universally recognized as a major league, along with several others, for many decades. I guess no player before 1903 has a Major League rookie, by your redefinition of what "major league" means. Cy Young's first major league card is now his E107. "major league baseball" and "Major League Baseball" are not the same thing, one is a description of the level of play and acceptance in the stat books, the other is an actual organization.

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

Major League Baseball is not a single league, the American League and the National League constitute the current MLB umbrella organization that is composed of these two leagues. This umbrella organization did not exist at all until 1903, and remained fairly toothless for quite some time after that. The Federal League has been universally recognized as a major league, along with several others, for many decades. I guess no player before 1903 has a Major League rookie, by your redefinition of what "major league" means. Cy Young's first major league card is now his E107. "major league baseball" and "Major League Baseball" are not the same thing, one is a description of the level of play and acceptance in the stat books, the other is an actual organization.

Again, no.

It is possible to be a rookie in one league and then another and have them both be considered major leagues. But it is still not major league baseball unless you're playing in major league baseball. Ichiro is the perfect example. He played major league baseball in Japan but it was not THE major leagues. He became an MLB rookie when he played in the MLB. It can go the other way too. If you leave MLB and go play in Japan, are you not a rookie your first season in NPB?