Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"

[abothebear]

Lou Whitaker
Darrell Evans
Lance Parish
Chet Lemon
Kirk Gibson
Johnny Grubb

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by abothebear

Lou Whitaker
Darrell Evans
Lance Parish
Chet Lemon
Kirk Gibson
Johnny Grubb

What’s your favorite team?

[G1911]

Went through each name and sorted them by what I think their category is. Added some new ones, ignoring steroid guys as the argument against them has nothing to do with objective discussion of performance or ranking among pioneers, but is a purely ethical argument that seems a separate issue from the analytical arguments.

Players I would vote for as a no-brainer, whose exclusion from the Hall is a detriment to the Hall
Ross Barnes
James Creighton
Minnie Minoso
Curt Schilling


Players I would vote for and think clearly belong, but see a reasoned argument against:
Bill Dahlen
Gil Hodges
Jeff Kent
Kenny Lofton
Fred McGriff


Players I could go either way on, borderline yes or borderline no:
Dick Allen (not mentioned yet)
Albert Belle
Lance Berkman (not mentioned yet)
Ken Boyer
Pete Browning
Bob Caruthers
Rocky Colavito
Pebbly Jack Glasscock (not mentioned yet)
Tommy John
Jim Kaat - Poor ERA compared to league, lots and lots of consistent innings
Don Mattingly (surprisingly not mentioned yet)
Jim McCormick (not mentioned yet)
Tony Mullane (not mentioned yet)
Tony Oliva
Dave Parker
Cannonball Redding - what I have seen of his surviving numbers seems to me to suggest he is not a HOFer, but the numbers from his leagues are incomplete and dubious.
Luis Tiant
George Van Haltren
Lou Whitaker


Players I think are below Hall standards but I see how a reasonable argument could be made:
Tommy Bridges
Dave Concepcion
Johnny Damon
Carlos Delgado
Larry Doyle
Jim Edmonds
Darrel Evans
Dwight Evans
George Foster
Steve Garvey
Kirk Gibson
Bob Grich
Dummy Hoy
Andruw Jones
Johnny Kling
Sherry Magee
Thurman Munson (not mentioned yet)
Dale Murphy
Lefty O’Doul - Japan & PCL has never before been a factor for consideration.
Buck O’Neil - Nostalgia in and of itself is not enough.
Billy Pierce
Vada Pinson
Ed Reulbach - short career and his peak is not high enough to compensate
Johann Santana
Dave Stieb - About equal to Morris, but let’s not make that mistake twice.
Joe Wood


Players for whom I do not see a reasoned argument, are not serious candidates:
Jack Coombs - 2,300 IP and an ERA worse than the league average. 1 excellent season is not a HOFer
Mike Donlin
Johnny Grubb - This must be a tongue in cheek joke
Chet Lemon- This must be a tongue in cheek joke
Firpo Marberry
Clyde Milan - No HOF milestones, 9% better bat than league, good player but there is no way he is HOF
Lance Parish
Dummy Taylor - Less than 2,000 IP, 116 wins, ERA 7% better than league. Over 100 pitchers belong ahead of him.
Cecil Travis - Would be first player elected to the Hall of Fame specifically for what he did not accomplish rather than for what he did.

[Mike D.]

Mention of Mattingly and Garvey make me think another thread - “Guys who felt like Hall of Famers during their careers, but now are unlikely to be inducted”.

Guess you’d need to specify “non-steroids addition” to keep the list of reasonable size.

Garvey, Mattingly, Murphy…maybe Joe Carter?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Mention of Mattingly and Garvey make me think another thread - “Guys who felt like Hall of Famers during their careers, but now are unlikely to be inducted”.

Guess you’d need to specify “non-steroids addition” to keep the list of reasonable size.

Garvey, Mattingly, Murphy…maybe Joe Carter?

I would add Dave Parker, Al Oliver, Jim Edmonds, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden and maybe David Cone to that list.

And if they fail to make it to Cooperstown in the future, definitely Joe Mauer and Buster Posey (looking ahead).

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I would add Dave Parker, Al Oliver, Jim Edmonds, Darryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden and maybe David Cone to that list.

And if they fail to make it to Cooperstown in the future, definitely Joe Mauer and Buster Posey (looking ahead).

I still think Edmonds and Cone have a shot via Vets committee.

I remember reading the term “Al Oliver Abyss” describing the gap between 2700 career hits and 3000.

[jingram058]

Okay, here we go:

Gil Hodges - Sorry, folks, this one's a no-brainer. No logic, facts, or stats other than cruelty can justify why he isn't already in.

Stan Hack - Another one that I just don't understand. Is it just because he played for the Cubs? Great third baseman.

Riggs Stephenson - Crazy batting average, and wildly popular Cub, but punished for his weak, football-injury throwing arm.

Charlie Grimm - The Cubs list could go on and on. This man was a baseball ambassador, beyond being a great player, and yes, also manager of some very competitive, because of him, but not so great teams.

Cecil Travis - Great, versatile ballplayer for a dreadful Senators team, then suffered the misfortune of not just being in the Army during WW2, but suffering frostbite in combat during the Battle of the Bulge, which effectively wrecked his baseball playing career. And he was never bitter about it.

Those fellows above I feel quite strongly about. The fellows below get an "Honorable Mention" from me on the strength of crazy accomplishments:

Frankie Crosetti - Waved more men home while coaching at third than anyone in history, and player and coach on 23 World Series teams.

Johnny Vander Meer - If he never did another thing, he gets mention just for throwing 2 consecutive no-hitters. Just imagine someone doing that. Pete Rose said it best, "Someone might tie that someday, maybe, but no one will ever break it. No one is ever going to throw 3 consecutive no-hitters." Pete's obviously not going in, but I love him anyway.

Bucky Walters - Just didn't truly dominate as a pitcher long enough, but what a great story of his conversion from average third baseman to, for a few years, overwhelming pitcher at the hands of another guy you hear nothing about, Jimmy Wilson.

[David W]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Mention of Mattingly and Garvey make me think another thread - “Guys who felt like Hall of Famers during their careers, but now are unlikely to be inducted”.

Guess you’d need to specify “non-steroids addition” to keep the list of reasonable size.

Garvey, Mattingly, Murphy…maybe Joe Carter?

It is the Hall of FAME, not great. As a child of the 1970's and 80's, no baseball players were more famous than Garvey, Mattingly, and Murphy. They also had borderline great careers, but they were FAMOUS. Dave Parker also fits this category. Joe Carter.... decent career but only famous for 1 game.

As a midwest Cardinal fan, Garvey was famous, but became infamous for stealing the MVP from Lou Brock in 1974. Murphy was a 2 time MVP, and benefitted from the boom in cable TV, led by Ted Turner, owner of the Braves.
Mattingly, MVP and Yankee legend, back injuries slowed him down. Parker was an MVP, and famous for 2 great throws in an all star game, plus on one of the legendary teams, We Are Family 1979 Pirates.

If the 1984 Tigers had been able to sustain that greatness, rather than just that 1 magical year, I think Lou Whitaker (who should be in anyway, and Lance Parrish (not sure on him) would also be in.

I'd put these guys pictured in the HOF.

[maniac_73]

By Coincidence this article just came out today after I mentioned Delgado yesterday. Us canucks think alike lol. Make sure to check out Kevins blog hes fantastic
https://cooperstownersincanada.com/2...-huminatarian/

[Mike D.]

It is the Hall of FAME, not great.

People always say that, and it IS the name…but it’s never been really true.

There are players who are “famous” who aren’t inducted, and players who aren’t famous are in.

“Fame” is subjective and changes - many players were famous in their time but are no longer.

I think the key is that sometimes it’s hard to know if a career is a hall of fame one until it’s over or almost over. Look at a guy like Adrian Beltre…10 years into his career, few thought he’d be a hall of famer. Now he’s a likely first ballot lock.

[MooseDog]

Bay Area Candidates

1) Lefty O'Doul
2) Will Clark
3) Vida Blue
4) Jose Canseco
5) Billy Martin

O'Doul undoubtedly should be in. Clark is kid of Dale Murphy level. Blue and Canseco put up numbers equal to or better than other borderline HOF candidates but have drugs (Blue) and steroid (Canseco) scandals hanging over their heads.

Billy Martin should be in at the very least as a manager.

[brianclat11]

I’ll second the vote for Dave Concepción of the 70s Big Red machine. For my money, one of the best defensive shortstops that ever played the game. His connection with Joe Morgan at 2nd was special. He could also handle the bat but kind of played second fiddle to the superstars on that team. The fact he hung around a little bit longer on the Reds when they went through some lean times didn’t help.

[ThomasL]

Im a small Hall guy so I will take someone out if Im putting someone in...

Putting in:

Buck O'Neil
Lefty O'Doul
-both based on a solid careers and stellar post career involvement and contributions.

Rafael Palmeiro
Sammy Sosa
-there are already steroid guys in so lets not be hypocritical here, these two should have been no brainers (3000 hits/500 HR guy and a 600 HR guy) had it not been for steriods

Taking out:
Rabbit Maranville
Jesse Haines
Bud Selig
Candy Cummings

(Schilling should be in and probably will get in so Im not listing him)

[Knoxy24]

Dave Parker was solid at the plate and in the field....others would include

Keith Hernandez
Gary Sheffield

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Knoxy24

Dave Parker was solid at the plate and in the field....others would include

Keith Hernandez
Gary Sheffield

Sheffield has the PED problem, right?
Parker is another one of those guys who, to me anyhow, seemed better at the time than the metrics showed in hindsight.

[esd10]

Jake daubert a premier 1st baseman of the deadball era who belongs in the hall of fame.
August herrmann consider one of the fathers of the world series and made peace between the nl and al by giving up sam crawford to Detroit and Tony mullane.

[Mike D.]

Shouldn’t the HOF be just starting pitchers, shortstops, and center fielders? I mean, those guys could play anywhere, and everyone else wasn’t good enough to play there.

If being a modern closer is so easy, why have there been only 30 of them to amass even 300 saves (and only 12 with 350)?

Rivera was the best of all time…but just because you saw Babe Ruth doesn’t mean you shouldn’t appreciate the greatness of Lou Gehrig.

[abothebear]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Shouldn’t the HOF be just starting pitchers, shortstops, and center fielders? I mean, those guys could play anywhere, and everyone else wasn’t good enough to play there.

Absolutely, if fielding was the only thing they did.

[abothebear]

Originally Posted by Mike D.

If being a modern closer is so easy, why have there been only 30 of them to amass even 300 saves (and only 12 with 350)? .

Because saves are so insignificant teams didn’t strategize to amass them until recent changes in the game. Because designating one guy to amass the save stat is largely arbitrary and not done, or not consistently done, by all teams. Because there are a limited number of saves that can be gotten each season. Because closers are a dime a dozen, so a bout of bad luck or the whim of a manager can bump a closer down the line at any time for any length of time, regardless of how great the pitcher may be. Because some amassers of saves are better than closers and are moved from save-getter into the starting lineup.

[Seven]

Something I'm interested in seeing is how Voters are going to handle some of the modern starting pitchers considering the game has changed so much. I always think of a pitcher like DeGrom who unfortunately has caught a bit of the injury bug this season, but it's difficult to deny his dominance. He'll be 34 next year but one would think he still has a few more years left. I'm wondering how his Hall of Fame case will be handled.

I don't think we're going to see another 300 game winner, anytime soon. Is 250 games going to be the new 300? Scherzer has an outside shot at it, so does Greinke. Will be interesting to see.

[packs]

Originally Posted by abothebear

Because saves are so insignificant teams didn’t strategize to amass them until recent changes in the game. Because designating one guy to amass the save stat is largely arbitrary and not done, or not consistently done, by all teams. Because there are a limited number of saves that can be gotten each season. Because closers are a dime a dozen, so a bout of bad luck or the whim of a manager can bump a closer down the line at any time for any length of time, regardless of how great the pitcher may be. Because some amassers of saves are better than closers and are moved from save-getter into the starting lineup.

I'm not saying you're wrong but if closers are a dime a dozen, shouldn't the elite of the elite become HOFers? What Rivera was able to do as a closer and for so long is extremely rare. Same thing with Hoyt Wilhelm. These guys are no doubters in my mind. They were so far away from dime a dozen it wouldn't make sense not to have them in the HOF.

[abothebear]

I understand we have to deal with what is, but I have a hard time believing there aren’t a thousand great starters who would have been even better if they only prepped for and gave all effort to one inning when already staked with the lead. That is why the sentiment of Rivera being the guy if you needed one inning is nonsense to me. Let me see the hundreds of Hall of Fame starters prepare for and only be depended on for one inning and then I’ll tell you if Mariano is the guy or not. I highly doubt it would be so clear. Frank Tannana, Roy Oswalt, Chuck Finley, these and many many more really good pitchers can easily be imagined having long and successful careers as one-inning closers. They weren’t because they were too good to waste on that, especially when there was a plethora of not-as-good guys to be maximized in a short stint when only one great pitch is needed.

Keith Hernandez closes out the most games as a hitter, nobody talks about this stat when making Keith’s case. But it is essentially the same statistic as a save.

What about Lenny Harris? Should he be in for all time pinch hits? Sure, he isn’t good enough to be a starter, but look at him shine in his fraction of the game.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by abothebear

Lou Whitaker
Darrell Evans
Lance Parish
Chet Lemon
Kirk Gibson
Johnny Grubb

How in the world did Johnny Grubb his way into this list?

Brian

[ctownboy]

abothebear must have been hungry when he made that list....

David

[abothebear]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

How in the world did Johnny Grubb his way into this list?

Brian

Every 8-year-old's favorite player should be in the Hall of Fame.

[Fred]

Did I just go through over 300 posts without a mention of Indian Bob Johnson?

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Fred

Did I just go through over 300 posts without a mention of Indian Bob Johnson?

+1

[GaryPassamonte]

Originally Posted by abothebear

Every 8-year-old's favorite player should be in the Hall of Fame.

Great!