Joe Jackson and Pete Rose Should Be HOFers Because...

BobC · #1 07-06-2021, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

The difference is that Aaron was still great in 1973 and very good in 1974. He already owned Tyr record when he stopped being good and was just average. Rose stopped being good in 1981, playing 3 full seasons as a not good or even terrible player before playing another half season as a basically average player before finally breaking the record. And you could probably make the case he only got in the lineup because he was the one writing out the card. There's hanging around for a long time (Aaron) and the there's hanging on. Pete definitely hung on, to the detriment of his teams (.602 OPS at 1B in 1983? Yikes. Maybe Philly actually wins the title if they had an actual major league 1B that year.)

I don't disagree that Aaron may have been a better player than Rose when comparing their last few years, but the truth is they had both lost quite a lot from their better days. And that is also not the relevant point and comparison I was referring to. Both Rose and Aaron had to play way beyond what a normal major league career is to be able to set their respective records. They both needed literally thousands of more at bats than the guys they were chasing, Cobb and Ruth. That is indisputable!!! And if you want to go even farther, the disparity is even worse. Remember, back when Ruth and Cobb played a season was 154 games, shorter than the 162 games it is now. And over the long career of Cobb, those missing games are likely the equivalent of another whole year's worth of at bats that he didn't get to add to his hit total. That could have easily been worth say another 200 hits to his all-time total. In which case, Rose may not have been able to hang on long enough to finally catch him. As for Ruth, I'd previously mentioned he didn't even bat full-time until he got to the Yankees in 1920. He was mostly pitching for the Red Sox from 1914 through 1919, even though he did start batting some more for the Sox in his last two season with them. In fact, it is funny how Ruth not even playing full-time still led the majors in home runs in both 1918 and 1919 for the Red Sox. Because of that, he didn't miss out on as many at bats as Cobb did because of the shorter schedule, but he still lost a lot of at bats from that also.

And I still point to the fact that Rose had so many years getting 200 or more hits, whereas Aaron seemed to have fewer years where he stood out as a home run hitter, and never hit 50 in a single season.

And to say Rose was chasing Cobb's record, yes of course. But you don't think Aaron wasn't also pushing to catch Ruth? You know MLB is always looking to pump up and advertise and bring interest to the sport. There was quite a lot of pressure on him to get that record. But to try and come out and now argue that because Aaron was a bit better player than Rose during their last few playing years does not change the fact that they both had to go and play a lot more to try and finally catch the people they were chasing. That was the valid and indisputable point I was making. Neither Aaron nor Rose over their careers completely dominated the area they hold their all-time records in. Certainly not like Ruth and Cobb did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

They tell similar stories about Ichiro. Seems odd that a player would intentionally choose to be less successful. In other words, the story is nonsense.

What story is nonsense, about Ichiro hitting home runs? I've also heard the stories that during batting practices Ichiro would change his swing to be like the home run guys and start belting shots all over the fences. And then after playing around and having fun he'd go right back to his normal swing and crank out singles and doubles, like he did over his entire career. A lot of his teammates had watched and seen him doing it, and felt that if he had wanted to, he could have hit a lot of home runs. But of course, he was mostly doing that during batting practices and not during actual games. Still, if you have major leaguers watching him and saying he could do it if he wanted to, I would tend to believe them more than you, unless by some chance you are a major leaguer and had actually seen Ichiro hitting in person and could honestly then tell everyone he couldn't do it if he wanted.

Now if you're saying the Cobb story is nonsense, what part of it? There is no dispute that Cobb hit 5 homers over back-to-back games, that is in the record books so that can't be it. Are you talking about the alleged story where he supposedly told some reporter beforehand he was going to hit home runs to show he could do it? If so, I'd already said there was no proof he actually said that to anyone, and it is possible someone had made it up after the fact, kind of like Ruth's called shot story. We'll never know the truth for either of them. But the fact remains that he did it, against major league pitching in back-to-back games. So regardless of what the actual story is and what was or wasn't actually said, for whatever reason, Cobb decided over those two days in 1925 to go for the fences, and boy was he successful!!!

Now here's the one thing you said that is really annoying. You said it seems odd that a player would intentionally choose to be less successful. Who are you talking about, Cobb or Ichiro, cause you didn't really say which story you find to be nonsense? Probably doesn't matter though because I'm not sure you'd find anyone to agree with you that either of them wasn't already as successful as they could be. So are you trying to say neither of them could really hit home runs if they wanted to, because if they could, they wouldn't have wasted their time hitting all the singles they did in their careers and would have been even better than they were? Is that it?!?!?! If the player with the all-time highest batting average in the history of baseball, who never hit more than 12 home runs in an entire season, suddenly decides to go for the fences in two games and knocks 5 homers out of the park, it sure ain't dumb luck on his part!!!!! And if it wasn't dumb luck on his part, then it had to be intentional, whether he told anybody he was going to do it or not. So are you effectively saying that Cobb chose to not be as successful as he could be?!?!?!? If that is the case, I wish he were alive today so you could stand in front of him and say that to his face. What I wouldn't give to be able to see his reaction to that! WOW!

Tabe · #2 07-06-2021, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Now if you're saying the Cobb story is nonsense, what part of it? There is no dispute that Cobb hit 5 homers over back-to-back games, that is in the record books so that can't be it. Are you talking about the alleged story where he supposedly told some reporter beforehand he was going to hit home runs to show he could do it?

Yes, that's the part that's nonsense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Now here's the one thing you said that is really annoying. You said it seems odd that a player would intentionally choose to be less successful. Who are you talking about, Cobb or Ichiro, cause you didn't really say which story you find to be nonsense?

Either one though I was specifically referring to Cobb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Probably doesn't matter though because I'm not sure you'd find anyone to agree with you that either of them wasn't already as successful as they could be.

Ah, but clearly that's not true since Cobb was able to hit over .500 with multiple homers per game when he was "trying". So clearly he could have been more successful because there's absolutely no way that the story about him trying wasn't just made up nonsense, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

So are you trying to say neither of them could really hit home runs if they wanted to, because if they could, they wouldn't have wasted their time hitting all the singles they did in their careers and would have been even better than they were? Is that it?!?!?!

Pretty much, yeah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

If the player with the all-time highest batting average in the history of baseball, who never hit more than 12 home runs in an entire season, suddenly decides to go for the fences in two games and knocks 5 homers out of the park, it sure ain't dumb luck on his part!!!!!

Clearly he's highly skilled so it's not just luck but... you're trying to say he possessed the inate ability to hit multiple homers per game his entire career and chose not to. Think about that for a second.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

So are you effectively saying that Cobb chose to not be as successful as he could be?!?!?!?

If he truly had the ability to hit home runs all that time and chose not to then, yeah, he was choosing to be less successful intentionally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

If that is the case, I wish he were alive today so you could stand in front of him and say that to his face. What I wouldn't give to be able to see his reaction to that! WOW!

I'd happily do that. Because my line of thinking - that Cobb absolutely maximized what he could do on the field - is far more charitable than your view which is that he chose to not help his team or perform to the best of his ability by intentionally NOT trying to hit the homers he could hit so easily.

BobC · #3 07-06-2021, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

Yes, that's the part that's nonsense.

Either one though I was specifically referring to Cobb.

Ah, but clearly that's not true since Cobb was able to hit over .500 with multiple homers per game when he was "trying". So clearly he could have been more successful because there's absolutely no way that the story about him trying wasn't just made up nonsense, right?

Pretty much, yeah.

Clearly he's highly skilled so it's not just luck but... you're trying to say he possessed the inate ability to hit multiple homers per game his entire career and chose not to. Think about that for a second.

If he truly had the ability to hit home runs all that time and chose not to then, yeah, he was choosing to be less successful intentionally.

I'd happily do that. Because my line of thinking - that Cobb absolutely maximized what he could do on the field - is far more charitable than your view which is that he chose to not help his team or perform to the best of his ability by intentionally NOT trying to hit the homers he could hit so easily.

Chris/Tabe,

It must really be nice to pick and choose statements and respond in such a way to twist someone else's words to your advantage, or did you not understand anything I said? And where do you get off saying my view is not "charitable" to Cobb and that I am somehow implying that he chose not to do his best to help his team? I said you'd have a hard time finding anyone to agree with you (not me, YOU) that Cobb and Ichiro weren't already as successful as they could be. So I'm saying that Cobb was as successful as he could be, and you somehow twist it to then say I'm now accusing him of not doing his best to help his team? You're the one that was implying Cobb wasn't doing his best to help his team because he didn't try to hit home runs, which you feel are so much more important than singles. So you think you're smart and going to put me in a Catch-22 huh?

So if I say Cobb could hit home runs if he wanted to, yet chose to hit singles instead, that counters your argument that everyone should think singles are worth so little compared to home runs. But instead of acknowledging that Cobb's opinion and what he does in his career puts down your thinking about the importance of singles, you're just going to ignore and deflect that by accusing me of implying that Cobb wasn't doing the best for his team and for himself then. And you make yourself look like you win the argument by accusing me of putting Cobb down and simply ignoring the fact that he was more for hitting singles.

But if on the other hand Cobb can't really hit home runs whenever he wanted to, aside from an occasional one here and there, then all he ever was is just a singles hitter and I can't use him and his choice to be a singles hitter to counter your argument that singles are worth so little compared to home runs. So then you again make yourself look like you win the argument because I don't have Cobb to counter it, and you still have the satisfaction of accusing me of implying that Cobb didn't do his best for himself or for his team.

Do I have it about right?

Seems you don't have an open mind and will only believe what you want to and you're right and anyone not agreeing with you is wrong. I never said Cobb wasn't the best and most successful he could be. That was what you were implying, and then you tried to turn it around and put it back on me to make yourself look right. The fact that Cobb did what he did in those two games in 1925 clearly shows he could change his swing if he wanted to and try to go for the fences. You keep saying the story isn't true about him telling some sportswriters beforehand that he was going to hit for home runs, and I've said I don't really believe the story either, but the fact is the home runs are in the record books. Whether or not he actually ever told anyone about trying to hit homers, he did it. So when you say you don't believe the story and therefore you don't believe he could hit for homers when he wanted to, then how do you account for and explain the sudden surge in power for just these two games in his entire career? I don't want your deflections, changing the subject, ignoring my direct question, or so on. Give me some logical thoughts, ideas, evidence, explanations, whatever you can come up with to then explain how hit hits 5 homers like that without him suddenly doing something different, and no more of the, "I just don't believe it" nonsense.

It is fairly well known, even today, there is always a lot of debate about whether batters should go for home runs or average (ie: more singles). You hear commentators make mention of guys changing their swings to try and elevate the ball more when they hit it, often at the expense of getting more strike outs, or suddenly popping it up or hitting weak grounders a lot more as well. A lot of times their batting averages will suffer as a result and they can end up going into slumps. All of which is not good, and can take time for a hitter to readjust their swing in some cases to get it back on track so they aren't always just swinging for the fences. Cobb was a great hitter with an almost unparalleled eye and bat control, He was also about 6'1", which was sizable for the players back then, and had some ooomph to his swing. He came up during the dead ball era and had shown he was the best player he could be for years, using his style of batting control and swing to set the all-time major league batting records he did. And then suddenly when he's already into his 30's, MLB decides to change the ball and make it more lively. Now it is something he's not used to and after all his prior years of playing ball, it isn't always easy to adapt and change one's swing and how you do things, especially when you've had the kind of success that Cobb had had, and was still continuing to have as long as he stuck to how he had always done things. It has also been commented on how Cobb was completely unpredictable in his hitting and baserunning, and that was one of his most valuable weapons. And it was also well known how Cobb despised the new live ball era, and Ruth especially with all the attention he was getting from his home runs. All of these could be contributing factors as to why Cobb may have experimented and tried changing his swing, and then went back to what it was almost immediately.

So, regardless of whether or not Cobb did or didn't say something about trying to hit home runs to anyone on the 5th and 6th of May, 1925, it seems pretty obvious that for whatever reason(s) he changed something about the way he batted those two days and went looking for the fences. This could have been part of his trying to be unpredictable, or maybe just an experiment to see if he could do it, and maybe he did just get lucky over those two days trying something different. But Cobb was anything but stupid when it came to baseball and hitting. He probably also knew that if he tried to keep going for the fences that his swing could get messed up and would ultimately start affecting his hitting and average, or maybe it wasn't comfortable and natural for him and he couldn't keep doing it like that. Also, once pitchers figured out that he was possibly changing his swing to try and elevate the ball more, the word would eventually get around and chances are he would start getting pitched to differently. You see it today even how batters first coming into a league oftentimes have an advantage because the pitchers don't know how to pitch to them yet. Whatever the reasoning and thinking, Cobb alone knew the truth, and whatever he did he was going to do for the success of himself and his team. To even think I'd second guess Cobb and imply he didn't do the best he could is utterly ridiculous. You had been the one saying it was so much better to hit homers than singles, which would imply that Cobb should have just tried hitting homers all the time. Cobb was the great hitter he was and knew better than either of us what was best for him and his team. So don't go putting words in my mouth and twisting what I gad said.

And if your logic about homers is so true, then why doesn't every major league player today do nothing but go for the fences? And if you're going to say it is because they also need fielders and the big studs can't all play the field, there are a lot of smaller guys that pound it out as well. So if you like homers so much more than singles and find them so much more important to the game, why don't you write to MLB and ask them to expand the DH rule to the max. Have nine designated batters so you can pick the biggest studs you can find to hit 'em out of the park, and then have eight different guys to play in the field. Would make sense from the team standpoint also because they wouldn't have their batters risking injury as much by playing in the field. Oohh, maybe they should have designated runners for the batters as well so the stud hitters don't injure themselves on the base paths either. That would certainly all make for a more fun game to watch and attend, based on your concept of how important home runs are, right?

I'll leave you with this. Cobb knew the importance of his hitting and singles, and despite all the changes in baseball over the years, there is still a lot today's game has in common with the game from back then. And even in the midst of the recent power surge baseball has seen over the past several years, I still don't feel home runs are as important to the game as you make them out to be. And believe it or not, there is a lot of statistical data to prove what I'm saying is true, even today.

https://www.samford.edu/sports-analy...Hitting-Period

Tabe · #4 07-07-2021, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

which you feel are so much more important than singles.

It's not just me - it's everyone. Home runs are FAAAAAARRRRRR more important than singles. That's absolutely indisputable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

So you think you're smart and going to put me in a Catch-22 huh?

If I can, sure

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

So if I say Cobb could hit home runs if he wanted to, yet chose to hit singles instead, that counters your argument that everyone should think singles are worth so little compared to home runs.

No, it doesn't counter my argument. What it does is provide another example of what Ichiro was criticized for throughout his career - prioritizing his average over everything else, to the detriment of his team. Ichiro after his first season (with some exceptions) basically stopped trying to hit the ball hard. This resulted in a guy hitting .320 with great speed somehow only getting 20 doubles a year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

But instead of acknowledging that Cobb's opinion and what he does in his career puts down your thinking about the importance of singles

If Cobb truly thought singles were anywhere close to the value of home runs, he was wrong. Period. I can acknowledge that opinion, if he held it, and say it's wrong - because it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

But if on the other hand Cobb can't really hit home runs whenever he wanted to, aside from an occasional one here and there, then all he ever was is just a singles hitter and I can't use him and his choice to be a singles hitter to counter your argument that singles are worth so little compared to home runs. So then you again make yourself look like you win the argument because I don't have Cobb to counter it, and you still have the satisfaction of accusing me of implying that Cobb didn't do his best for himself or for his team.

Do I have it about right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Seems you don't have an open mind and will only believe what you want to and you're right and anyone not agreeing with you is wrong.

Well, naturally I believe anybody who disagrees with me is wrong. Literally every single person on the planet feels that way. If you think something is correct and someone disagrees with you, you think they're wrong until they show you otherwise. If that weren't true, then you are admitting you believe something you know isn't true. Doesn't make sense, does it?

Also, I do have an open mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

how do you account for and explain the sudden surge in power for just these two games in his entire career?

The same way I account for Mark Lemke slugging .708 in the 1991 World Series. Or Dave Stieb throwing back-to-back 26-out no-hitters. Sometimes guys have a couple good days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

I don't want your deflections, changing the subject, ignoring my direct question, or so on. Give me some logical thoughts, ideas, evidence, explanations, whatever you can come up with to then explain how hit hits 5 homers like that without him suddenly doing something different, and no more of the, "I just don't believe it" nonsense.

It's simple - he made good contact and the ball went out. He needn't have changed anything for that to happen - he'd hit home runs before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

maybe just an experiment to see if he could do it

"Yep, that experiment was really successful. Don't wanna ever do that again!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

To even think I'd second guess Cobb and imply he didn't do the best he could is utterly ridiculous.

You're the one who said Cobb could hit homers when he wanted to and still chose not to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

You had been the one saying it was so much better to hit homers than singles, which would imply that Cobb should have just tried hitting homers all the time.

If he was able to hit them at will, as the 1925 story claims, yes, he should have tried hitting them all the time - because home runs are BETTER.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

And if your logic about homers is so true, then why doesn't every major league player today do nothing but go for the fences?

Because not every guy can hit them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

So if you like homers so much more than singles and find them so much more important to the game, why don't you write to MLB and ask them to expand the DH rule to the max.

I didn't say I like home runs more - now who's putting words in whose mouth? I said they're more important. I like variety - singles, doubles, stolen bases, home runs, the whole nine yards. But it's pretty obvious which of those is the best outcome for an AB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Have nine designated batters so you can pick the biggest studs you can find to hit 'em out of the park, and then have eight different guys to play in the field.

FWIW, I hate the DH.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

https://www.samford.edu/sports-analy...Hitting-Period

I mean, if you're going to do an analysis about home runs without controlling for a team's pitching quality, you're going to come up with a flawed analysis that somehow still comes up with the right result (more home runs = more wins), just as that article does.

Alright, just to be clear here:

1) Home runs are better than singles - by a LOT.
2) I don't believe Cobb said anything to any reporters that he could hit homers if he wanted because...
3) I don't believe Cobb could just hit homers whenever he wanted. He was a singles hitter.
4) Because of #3, I don't believe Cobb was intentionally performing worse by not trying to hit more home runs. I believe he recognized his own limitations and performed his best within those. It's nonsensical to believe he made a change in his swing or approach, HIT FIVE HOME RUNS IN TWO DAYS, and STILL decided that that approach wasn't the right way to do things.

Mark17 · #5 07-07-2021, 07:12 PM

Cobb played in the deadball era, but early in his career he was a home run hitter. In the A.L., here's where he finished on the HR leader board:

1907 second
1909 first
1910 second
1911 second
1912 third

So Cobb finished in the top 3 in home runs 5 of his first 6 full years in the majors. Relative to his time, and his peers, he was an outstanding home run hitter.

Tabe · #6 07-07-2021, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

Cobb played in the deadball era, but early in his career he was a home run hitter. In the A.L., here's where he finished on the HR leader board:

1907 second
1909 first
1910 second
1911 second
1912 third

So Cobb finished in the top 3 in home runs 5 of his first 6 full years in the majors. Relative to his time, and his peers, he was an outstanding home run hitter.

Misleading - in 1909, for example, all of his home runs were inside-the-park.

Mark17 · #7 07-07-2021, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

Misleading - in 1909, for example, all of his home runs were inside-the-park.

I thought your point was the relative value of singles vs. home runs. I didn't realize there was a difference in the result of a home run that goes over the fence and one that doesn't. Both clear the bases and count the same.

Cobb hit for power in the dead ball era; in his prime years, nobody was busting fences down. Nobody until the Babe.

chadeast · #8 07-07-2021, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

Cobb played in the deadball era, but early in his career he was a home run hitter. In the A.L., here's where he finished on the HR leader board:

1907 second
1909 first
1910 second
1911 second
1912 third

So Cobb finished in the top 3 in home runs 5 of his first 6 full years in the majors. Relative to his time, and his peers, he was an outstanding home run hitter.

Remember that hitting a ball over the outfield fence and hitting a home run were not as well correlated back then. Huge outfields made inside-the-park home runs much more common back then. So yes, Cobb led the league in home runs in 1909 with nine, but all nine were inside-the-park homers. It had as much to do with his speed as his extra-base power.

EDIT: Tabe beat me to it! I'll add that of Cobb's 117 HRs, 46 were inside-the-park variety, which is now and probably forever the AL record. 71 over-the-wall homers in 11,440 ABs.

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