Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"

Jason19th · #1 07-07-2021, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have never understood how Grich gets so high up in those WAR/JAWS ratings. Here are his other Baseball Reference metrics.

Something does not add up for me.

Black Ink
Batting - 8 (355), AverageHOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 40 (784), AverageHOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 42 (504), LikelyHOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 32 (305), AverageHOFer ≈ 50

And even more telling:
Similar Batters
1.Toby Harrah (908.6)
2.Brandon Phillips (898.2)
3.Jay Bell (894.8)
4.Bret Boone (892.6)
5.Jhonny Peralta (884.1)
6.Asdrubal Cabrera (883.7)
7.Chase Utley (882.6)
8.Sal Bando (879.9)
9.Ian Kinsler (876.1)
10.Travis Fryman (871.6

Two factors explain Grich�s war vs other metrics

1. 16.8 of his war is from defense

2. He was very consistent. Never had a bad year and never had a crazy good year. Therefore he was always valuable but didn�t lead the league in much

Tabe · #2 07-07-2021, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason19th

Two factors explain Grich�s war vs other metrics

1. 16.8 of his war is from defense

2. He was very consistent. Never had a bad year and never had a crazy good year. Therefore he was always valuable but didn�t lead the league in much

Also the fact that 2B was not exactly an offensive position during Grich's career. He had a lot of 13 homer, 50 RBI seasons that just don't look all that impressive.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 07-07-2021, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

Also the fact that 2B was not exactly an offensive position during Grich's career. He had a lot of 13 homer, 50 RBI seasons that just don't look all that impressive.

Maybe the numbers don't support me but I would rather have Jeff Kent or Chase Utley in the Hall than Grich. Whitaker too.

perezfan · #4 07-08-2021, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe the numbers don't support me but I would rather have Jeff Kent or Chase Utley in the Hall than Grich. Whitaker too.

I like Grich a lot, but also prefer Kent and Utley over him for the Hall. I would put Whitaker on a par with Grich. I prefer a smaller HOF, but would not mind if all four of them eventually got in. Some of the recent inductees would bug me more than all 4 of those second baggers getting in.

MacDice · #5 07-08-2021, 12:46 AM

Buck ONeil

Mike D. · #6 07-08-2021, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

I like Grich a lot, but also prefer Kent and Utley over him for the Hall. I would put Whitaker on a par with Grich. I prefer a smaller HOF, but would not mind if all four of them eventually got in. Some of the recent inductees would bug me more than all 4 of those second baggers getting in.

I think it comes down to offense vs. defense, peak vs longevity, with a touch of era/recency bias. That being said, looking at Utley and Kent�s raw numbers, they do feel more like HOFers. I honestly think all four belong.

My borderline personal 2B case is Pedroia. Borderline WAR total, but pretty much done at 33 due to injury. Strong rate stats for the position, ROY, MVP, WS wins, great defense, and a fun �gritty underdog gamer� vibe.

Kutcher55 · #7 07-08-2021, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D.

I think it comes down to offense vs. defense, peak vs longevity, with a touch of era/recency bias. That being said, looking at Utley and Kent�s raw numbers, they do feel more like HOFers. I honestly think all four belong.

My borderline personal 2B case is Pedroia. Borderline WAR total, but pretty much done at 33 due to injury. Strong rate stats for the position, ROY, MVP, WS wins, great defense, and a fun �gritty underdog gamer� vibe.

Pedroia needed a couple of more years. If that dirtball Machado hadn't Ulf Samuelson'd him, he would have been a HOFer.

molenick · #8 07-08-2021, 09:40 AM

Here's another "team" for your consideration. These are the (non-steroid/HGH) players at each position who got the highest percentage of votes in a given year but who are not in the Hall (the number is their single highest %). This was based on looking at roughly the top 100 players at each position and clicking on the ones I thought were good candidates for the list, so I may have missed someone. Since Baseball Reference does not show the recent Veteran's Committee voting, these totals are not included. My understanding is that, among others, Bill Dahlen came close one year. ~~If I can find a list of all those ballots I will update the team.~~

I found the recent VC results and have added them below. Only one position was changed but some players did get a higher % from the VC.

Dick Allen would be ahead at 1b or 3b depending on what you consider him. He had more games at 1b but had more WAR at 3b (at least that's how I interpret Baseball Reference ranking him under 3b).

C Elston Howard 20.7
1b Gil Hodges 63.4
2b Jeff Kent 32.4
ss Omar Vizquel 52.6 (Dahlen 62.5 VC)
3b Scott Rolen 52.9
lf Minnie Minoso 21.1 (56.3 VC)
cf Andruw Jones 33.9
rf Tony Oliva 47.3 (68.8 VC)
sp Curt Schilling 71.1
rp Billy Wagner 46.4
1b/3b Dick Allen 68.8 VC

The only player on both of my lists is Scott Rolen. He does have a good combination of "advanced" stats and traditional stats (over 300 HRs, five 100+ RBI seasons) and was a 7-time All-Star and 8-time Gold Glove winner. The ballot will be less crowded soon (Schilling, Bonds, and Clemens only have one year of eligibility left) so I'm thinking he will get in one day.

If you consider the VC voting, Dahlen is also on both lists.

SD · #9 07-08-2021, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

Pedroia needed a couple of more years. If that dirtball Machado hadn't Ulf Samuelson'd him, he would have been a HOFer.

As a fellow Sun Devil I love DP. But he's no HOF.

Pedroia was 34 when that happened and would of barely gotten over 2k hits if he remained healthy to play into his 40s. He Batted over 300 5 of his 12 healthy seasons & truly only played 150+ games 5 times in 14 years.

Even in 08 when he got the mvp, it was controversial (.326 /17hr/83 rbi). Morneau got robbed that season & Rodriguez had 62 saves that season which was more deserving.

His 51.6 war is impressive but there are 45 position players with a WAR better than Pedroia�s 51.6 who are not in the Hall call. 7 of them are 2nd baseman. Grich, Whitaker, Randolph, Kent, Utley, Cano & Kinsler.

Watch the video, Machado's cleat pops up from hitting the bag, barely touches Pedroia who is in a bad defensive fielding position. Taking a throw from from SS behind 2b instead of in front of it is little league stuff. Machado was in his base path which is his right. Aggressive within your right and dirty are too different things.

Want to see an intentionally dirty slide, watch Utley obliterate Miguel Tejada 2 feet from the bag in 2015.

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