Let's talk about Hall of Fame candidates who have been "neglected"

SD · #1 07-08-2021, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

Pedroia needed a couple of more years. If that dirtball Machado hadn't Ulf Samuelson'd him, he would have been a HOFer.

As a fellow Sun Devil I love DP. But he's no HOF.

Pedroia was 34 when that happened and would of barely gotten over 2k hits if he remained healthy to play into his 40s. He Batted over 300 5 of his 12 healthy seasons & truly only played 150+ games 5 times in 14 years.

Even in 08 when he got the mvp, it was controversial (.326 /17hr/83 rbi). Morneau got robbed that season & Rodriguez had 62 saves that season which was more deserving.

His 51.6 war is impressive but there are 45 position players with a WAR better than Pedroia�s 51.6 who are not in the Hall call. 7 of them are 2nd baseman. Grich, Whitaker, Randolph, Kent, Utley, Cano & Kinsler.

Watch the video, Machado's cleat pops up from hitting the bag, barely touches Pedroia who is in a bad defensive fielding position. Taking a throw from from SS behind 2b instead of in front of it is little league stuff. Machado was in his base path which is his right. Aggressive within your right and dirty are too different things.

Want to see an intentionally dirty slide, watch Utley obliterate Miguel Tejada 2 feet from the bag in 2015.

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RayBShotz · #2 07-08-2021, 10:59 AM

I didn't study the whole thread and don't know if Albert Belle was mentioned.
During his 9-10 year run he was as dangerous and productive a hitter as anyone in MLB.
Career cut short by debilitating injury and wasn't exactly beloved by the Press but Albert could rake.
Take a look at his stats from the strike season. Can you just imagine where that season would have finished amongst the others from the era.
RayB

SD · #3 07-08-2021, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayBShotz

I didn't study the whole thread and don't know if Albert Belle was mentioned.

During his 9-10 year run he was as dangerous and productive a hitter as anyone in MLB.

Career cut short by debilitating injury and wasn't exactly beloved by the Press but Albert could rake.

Take a look at his stats from the strike season. Can you just imagine where that season would have finished amongst the others from the era.

RayB

94 the last of the Kevin Mitchell years. Him, Griffey, Belle, Thomas and Bagwell where hitting HRs and high BA.

Lofton stealing bases any time he wanted and getting hits like no ones business.

But no one was as hot as Tony and his .394 average. K'd only 19 times in 475 PA. That's 2 weeks for Javy Baez.

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Mike D. · #4 07-08-2021, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD

As a fellow Sun Devil I love DP. But he's no HOF.

Pedroia was 37 when that happened and would of barely gotten over 2k hits if he remained healthy to play into his 40s. He Batted over 300 5 of his 12 healthy seasons & truly only played 150+ games 5 times in 14 years.

Well�no. Pedroia is 37 NOW.

Kutcher55 · #5 07-08-2021, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD

As a fellow Sun Devil I love DP. But he's no HOF.

Pedroia was 37 when that happened and would of barely gotten over 2k hits if he remained healthy to play into his 40s. He Batted over 300 5 of his 12 healthy seasons & truly only played 150+ games 5 times in 14 years.

Even in 08 when he got the mvp, it was controversial (.326 /17hr/83 rbi). Morneau got robbed that season & Rodriguez had 62 saves that season which was more deserving.

His 51.6 war is impressive but there are 45 position players with a WAR better than Pedroia�s 51.6 who are not in the Hall call. 7 of them are 2nd baseman. Grich, Whitaker, Randolph, Kent, Utley, Cano & Kinsler.

Watch the video, Machado's cleat pops up from hitting the bag, barely touches Pedroia who is in a bad defensive fielding position. Taking a throw from from SS behind 2b instead of in front of it is little league stuff. Machado was in his base path which is his right. Aggressive within your right and dirty are too different things.

Want to see an intentionally dirty slide, watch Utley obliterate Miguel Tejada 2 feet from the bag in 2015.

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These are solid points and appreciate the perspective. He would have been an interesting case if he had been able to carry on for a few more years. Regarding Machado's slide, certainly debatable but I still feel it was dirty especially in consideration of his pattern of behavior throughout his career, including a very dirty moment in the 2018 WS.

Tabe · #6 07-08-2021, 03:41 PM

I just watched the Machado slide and it's basically nothing. Pedroia's positioning is fine, Machado's leg pops up and he spikes Pedroia. Doesn't even really make strong contact with Pedroia's leg. I'm seeing online descriptions saying that Pedroia's knee "buckled" and so on - nope. He got spiked, his leg popped up, and then he went down. If it truly ended his career, it's an amazingly innocuous play for that to happen on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbAYcXPhIUE

Mike D. · #7 07-08-2021, 03:51 PM

Pedroia did have existing knee issues, which I�m sure didn�t help. For what it�s worth, Pedroia didn�t seem to think the slide was dirty.

Maybe it�s my Red Sox tinted glasses, but if I squint, I see an injury shortened career that may have had enough peak without the benefit of longevity. Think Kirby Puckett (he had a shorter career but similar WAR).

howard38 · #8 07-08-2021, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD

As a fellow Sun Devil I love DP. But he's no HOF.

Pedroia was 37 when that happened and would of barely gotten over 2k hits if he remained healthy to play into his 40s. He Batted over 300 5 of his 12 healthy seasons & truly only played 150+ games 5 times in 14 years.

Even in 08 when he got the mvp, it was controversial (.326 /17hr/83 rbi). Morneau got robbed that season & Rodriguez had 62 saves that season which was more deserving.

His 51.6 war is impressive but there are 45 position players with a WAR better than Pedroia�s 51.6 who are not in the Hall call. 7 of them are 2nd baseman. Grich, Whitaker, Randolph, Kent, Utley, Cano & Kinsler.

Watch the video, Machado's cleat pops up from hitting the bag, barely touches Pedroia who is in a bad defensive fielding position. Taking a throw from from SS behind 2b instead of in front of it is little league stuff. Machado was in his base path which is his right. Aggressive within your right and dirty are too different things.

Want to see an intentionally dirty slide, watch Utley obliterate Miguel Tejada 2 feet from the bag in 2015.

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Pedroia is 37 now.

SD · #9 07-08-2021, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by howard38

Pedroia is 37 now.

Yes, thank you, corrected above.

Kinsler, Utley, Rollins, Pedroia are all similar players with good arguments. Pedroia being the best of the bunch in my opinion.

It's very unlikely Pedroia would have played another 5 years. If he did could he have put up Sandberg type of numbers? Probably not. I feel like thats the bottom line of what it would have taken to get in.

That being said, was Pedroia better then Bobby Doerr who is in? I have heard this argument from Boston fans in the past. I'd say no where close.

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Mike D. · #10 07-08-2021, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD

That being said, was Pedroia better then Bobby Doerr who is in? I have heard this argument from Boston fans in the past. I'd say no where close.

It�s an interesting comparison.

By WAR, they�re close�with a fraction of one WAR separating them (BBR version).

Doerr had about 1,250 more PA. Both were effectively done by age 33, with Doerr getting an earlier start.

Doerr had a .288/.362/.461 line with a .823 OPS and 115 OPS+

Pedroia had a 299/.365/.439 line with an .805 OPS and 113 OPS+

So, I�d probably give Doerr and edge, but it�s not THAT far off.

Mike D. · #11 07-08-2021, 06:06 PM

Of note, WAR is a counting stat�so when I see Kinsler with 2.2 more WAR than Pedroia, but with 1,500 plus more plate appearances, that doesn�t scream �better� to me. A look at their raw numbers, rate stats, etc seems to back that up.

SD · #12 07-08-2021, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D.

Of note, WAR is a counting stat�so when I see Kinsler with 2.2 more WAR than Pedroia, but with 1,500 plus more plate appearances, that doesn�t scream �better� to me. A look at their raw numbers, rate stats, etc seems to back that up.

Fun fact, Pedroia beat out Kinsler at SS when both where at ASU, causing the latter to transfer to Mizzou.

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Mike D. · #13 07-09-2021, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD

Fun fact, Pedroia beat out Kinsler at SS when both where at ASU, causing the latter to transfer to Mizzou.

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That is an interesting one�I hadn�t heard that. Thanks for sharing!

h2oya311 · #14 07-09-2021, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD

Fun fact, Pedroia beat out Kinsler at SS when both where at ASU, causing the latter to transfer to Mizzou.

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Fun fact - I played in a father-son fantasy football league with Pedroia 2 years ago. We did a live draft so I got to hang with him for a few hours. He had just had knee surgery and was popping pills every half hour. He took Tom Brady.

egri · #15 07-08-2021, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD

That being said, was Pedroia better then Bobby Doerr who is in? I have heard this argument from Boston fans in the past. I'd say no where close.

I agree. While they both had injury-shortened careers, Doerr also lost a year and change due to the war. He was drafted in August 1944 and didn't return until 1946.

Mike D. · #16 07-09-2021, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by egri

I agree. While they both had injury-shortened careers, Doerr also lost a year and change due to the war. He was drafted in August 1944 and didn't return until 1946.

The fact that Doerr debuted at 19 and was a major league regular is super impressive.

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