PSA completely unethical

[jkm412]

Originally Posted by todeen

PSA brings the highest resale prices. People who don't care about resale will choose other TPG. People who want the highest return on investment will choose PSA and complain. If someone else started a registry that could compete against PSA, that would change the market!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Tim you are clearly missing the point. PSA just needs to be clear 1. our service sucks unless you are willing to pay top dollar 2. we are shameless and will make any statement to make it appear we care about service 3. we don't care about service

that should be their mission statement

they should not be offering any services until they get through the glut of submissions that they accepted knowing full well they were not going to be able to deliver

you can argue all your dog eat dog comments you want but most people on this board just seem to enjoy this as a hobby and then you have PSA that wants to monetize every opportunity and deliver crappy service

for gods sake i collect track and field cards i must have rocks in my head

[todeen]

Originally Posted by jkm412

Tim you are clearly missing the point.....

you can argue all your dog eat dog comments you want but most people on this board just seem to enjoy this as a hobby and then you have PSA that wants to monetize every opportunity and deliver crappy service

I'm not missing the point. I don't grade my cards. I am one of those collectors who collect for the enjoyment, like you. But I'm not naive either. I started collecting during the junk wax era 30 years ago when I was six, and I've known full well since elementary school that every facet of card collecting is based on economics. Beckett monthly publication. Dead on centered, mint, gem mint, eye appeal. Hot List / Cold List. LCS. Card shows. The National. Those are all terms of dog eat dog competition. And everyone on this board recognizes that. Some of us, like you and me, just choose not to get caught up in it. But all people on this board realize that this hobby is clearly the definition of capitalism, and has been since all of us were children. Except maybe TedZ who appears to be as old as Santa Claus.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Leon]

I agree Tim.
And PSA isn't doing anything unethical. It's business. Are they screwing a lot of customers over, absolutely. But it doesn't matter to them, or their customers apparently, as the more people submit the more money they and PSA make. It's not rocket science. I applaud them for taking advantage of the situation and just shake my head at the comments from those that can't wait to submit and complain too.
My prediction is yet another grading company comes to fruition soon. You heard it here first.
Why wouldn't someone enter the market with the chaos and money involved?
.

Originally Posted by todeen

I'm not missing the point. I don't grade my cards. I am one of those collectors who collect for the enjoyment, like you. But I'm not naive either. I started collecting during the junk wax era 30 years ago when I was six, and I've known full well since elementary school that every facet of card collecting is based on economics. Beckett monthly publication. Dead on centered, mint, gem mint, eye appeal. Hot List / Cold List. LCS. Card shows. The National. Those are all terms of dog eat dog competition. And everyone on this board recognizes that. Some of us, like you and me, just choose not to get caught up in it. But all people on this board realize that this hobby is clearly the definition of capitalism, and has been since all of us were children. Except maybe TedZ who appears to be as old as Santa Claus.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I agree Tim.
And PSA isn't doing anything unethical. It's business. Are they screwing a lot of customers over, absolutely. But it doesn't matter to them, or their customers apparently, as the more people submit the more money they and PSA make. It's not rocket science. I applaud them for taking advantage of the situation and just shake my head at the comments from those that can't wait to submit and complain too.
My prediction is yet another grading company comes to fruition soon. You heard it here first.
Why wouldn't someone enter the market with the chaos and money involved?
.

Ebay, I hear.

[bobbyw8469]

If I do another group sub with them, I have no one to blame but myself. Of course, if they make this right with me, I would be tempted. Leon nailed it. You hate to use anyone else, because PSA cards are getting a premium. If this isn't the proverbial "catch 22", I don't know what is......

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

If I do another group sub with them, I have no one to blame but myself. Of course, if they make this right with me, I would be tempted. Leon nailed it. You hate to use anyone else, because PSA cards are getting a premium. If this isn't the proverbial "catch 22", I don't know what is......

Nobody goes there any more, it's too crowded.

[Yoda]

PSA has had my submission of about 50 really nice vintage post-war Hof'ers since May of 2020. The cards now appear to be in grading, but who knows? This will be my last submission to PSA.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Yoda

PSA has had my submission of about 50 really nice vintage post-war Hof'ers since May of 2020. The cards now appear to be in grading, but who knows? This will be my last submission to PSA.

Here is praying that the package doesn't wind up missing.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

If I do another group sub with them, I have no one to blame but myself. Of course, if they make this right with me, I would be tempted. Leon nailed it. You hate to use anyone else, because PSA cards are getting a premium. If this isn't the proverbial "catch 22", I don't know what is......

Your sanity is worth something too, not just the cards.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by conor912

Your sanity is worth something too, not just the cards.

Thank you Conor. I am at my wits end thinking about this.

[sreader3]

I still chuckle about the title of this thread.

Most people use PSA because their expectancy value is higher than their grading fees, discounted for inflation and risks of loss. Taking a highly simplified example, if you have a raw card worth $1000 and you think there is a 50% chance it will be worth $2000 after grading and a 50% chance it will be worth $1000 after grading, your expectancy value is $1500 less grading fees, inflation (while you wait) and risks of loss. Let's say inflation and risks of loss total $200, reducing your expectancy value to $1300. You will still pay up to $300 in grading fees (maybe somewhat less if you are risk averse, as most of us are) because your expectancy value will still be greater than the value of your ungraded card.

I am sure there are collectors who have legitimate moral concerns about PSA but this is how many people, myself included (and probably PSA) view the situation.

In sum, it's fine to complain about how PSA has "screwed" collectors, but that sentiment needs to be balanced against the value that PSA has created for collectors.

And, no, I am not on PSA's "payroll." I have met Joe Orlando and David Hall but neither one ever offered me a dime. I do, however, have cards that are worth a lot more because they are in PSA holders.

[jkm412]

Originally Posted by sreader3

I still chuckle about the title of this thread.

Most people use PSA because their expectancy value is higher than their grading fees, discounted for inflation and risks of loss. Taking a highly simplified example, if you have a raw card worth $1000 and you think there is a 50% chance it will be worth $2000 after grading and a 50% chance it will be worth $1000 after grading, your expectancy value is $1500 less grading fees, inflation (while you wait) and risks of loss. Let's say inflation and risks of loss total $200, reducing your expectancy value to $1300. You will still pay up to $300 in grading fees (maybe somewhat less if you are risk averse, as most of us are) because your expectancy value will still be greater than the value of your ungraded card.

I am sure there are collectors who have legitimate moral concerns about PSA but this is how many people, myself included (and probably PSA) view the situation.

In sum, it's fine to complain about how PSA has "screwed" collectors, but that sentiment needs to be balanced against the value that PSA has created for collectors.

And, no, I am not on PSA's "payroll." I have met Joe Orlando and David Hall but neither one ever offered me a dime. I do, however, have cards that are worth a lot more because they are in PSA holders.

And your point is what? Mr. Chuckle. As I said I collect track and field cards (hardly an investment decision) I just wanted some nice cards encapsulated. No cards here that I am boasting are worth 50K. So yes they are screwing the average person who does not make a living buying and selling (investing) in cardboard.

[Kutcher55]

They are still a small company $35m in a quarter is really peanuts for most businesses as is $10m operating income and the profit margin is nothing wild either. The premium the cards get over SGC which grades every bit as tough but has a much less checkered background is mind boggling to me.

[jkm412]

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

They are still a small company $35m in a quarter is really peanuts for most businesses as is $10m operating income and the profit margin is nothing wild either. The premium the cards get over SGC which grades every bit as tough but has a much less checkered background is mind boggling to me.

i just don't understand how anyone can defend them. they created the graded market messed up the graded market and now they want people to be patient with them. and as an added layer of BS they went private so as not to answer to anyone. you can say it just business but i have noticed its mostly you all with the high end cards who don't want to mess up a good thing. and hell i don't blame you

[sreader3]

Again, I suggest that you do not use PSA if you think they do not provide a valuable service. I have personally stopped using them while this all sorts out. But I think the notion that they should not capitalize on the price premium that some collectors are willing to pay at the National for premium service is absurd.

You have a personal choice. It’s hot that hard. Do nothing.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Leon

I agree Tim.
And PSA isn't doing anything unethical. It's business.
.

I disagree. If PSA had said, back during their hiatus from accepting new submissions, "When we restart, we'll be accepting in-person submissions at the National that will jump the line of any current/new submissions" I would agree with you.

They didn't.

Accepting money to let latecomers jump the line when not giving that opportunity to those already in line is unethical.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

They're not "jumping the line." It's no different than submitting at a higher level through the mail. The higher level submissions always came before bulks, etc. That's never been a secret, it's outright stated on the forms.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

The higher level submissions always came before bulks, etc.

This is literally what "jumping the line" means, Scott.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Jumping the line implies something unfair. Everyone has the same opportunity to pay the same rates and get the same treatment. As far as I know nobody gets special line-jumping privileges because they are a snappy dresser. So if it's a known practice, and applied equitably, to me it's not line jumping. If this has always been the practice, acting outraged because it's still the practice seems a little silly.