The Cleveland Guardians? Yes, It's Official

[Casey2296]

Awkward name, I'll stick to calling them the "Naps".

[insidethewrapper]

How about the Cleveland Fellers ?

[BCauley]

The reasoning behind it makes sense. I think everybody is just so used to the Indians name though that it'll seem awkward for a bit to call them the Guardians.

[Mutton Chop Yaz]

I'm a Cleveland fan. It's fine. "Indians" needed to go, and any new name would have sounded odd after 106 years with the old one. I would have preferred a historical name, or even "Americans" like my 1914 Cracker Jack Lajoie reads, but they weren't picking the name for my benefit. We'll all be accustomed to "Guardians" in a couple of years.

[Bugsy]

I guess there were IP issues with the name Spiders.

[Hirbonzig]

I predict a section in the bleachers will be called the “Big House” with everyone dressed as bad ass prison guards.

[Leon]

They should have named them the "Inclusives"

.

[Mutton Chop Yaz]

No need to relitigate this extensively, but setting aside recriminations about whom might be offended by what (including a name change itself) and why, and whether that's the actual issue, as a fan of the club, I appreciate the move to a new name.

[Neal]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

I guess there were IP issues with the name Spiders.

Or a small bunch of arachnophobes threatened the club

[CurtisFlood]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

How about the Cleveland Fellers ?

As a grade schooler I became an Indian's fan by reading Bob Feller's books. Bob Fellers Strikeout Story and Pitching To Win. If their name had been Guardians I would not have been interested.

Total Pud effort in finding a new moniker.

[gawaintheknight]

Just to clarify: when someone says that white people are racist, it doesn't mean that all white people actively hate minorities or burn crosses or murder people in a black church or fly a Confederate flag. I think that there are two points to be made: one is that white people have prejudices, which they may not even recognize, because everyone does, whatever race they identify as. The difference is that white people have privilege and power that other races don't have, and because white people have privilege and power, their prejudices turn into racism and oppression in a way that's not possible for races that don't have privilege and power.

A classic article about white privilege: https://nationalseedproject.org/Key-...sible-knapsack


The second point that I think is important is that not all racism comes from individual racist acts. There's also structural racism. There are a lot of articles about that - here's one specifically aimed at Christians by a conservative Christian, but useful even if you're not a Christian yourself:

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/...t-wokeness-its

Given that structural racism exists, and that white people benefit from it, we (I'm white) have three options. One is to be happy with our privilege and tell ourselves we deserve it. One is to recognize that it's a bad thing, but not do anything to change it. That lets us feel good about ourselves, because we aren't actively doing anything wrong, but it perpetuates the status quo and the existing structural racism, even if we don't personally feel hostility to minorities. And the last one is to actively work against it.

Incidentally, the National Council of American Indians had this to say about the name change:

https://www.ncai.org/news/articles/2...name-guardians

“With today’s announcement, the Cleveland baseball team has taken another important step forward in healing the harms its former mascot long caused Native people, in particular Native youth,” said NCAI President Fawn Sharp. “We call on the other professional sports teams and thousands of schools across the country that still cling to their antiquated Native ‘themed’ mascots to immediately follow suit. NCAI also looks forward to continuing its work with the Cleveland Guardians to help grow the national movement of respect for Tribal Nations, cultures, and communities, a movement that values, teaches, and validates who Native people are today, what makes us unique, the many important contributions we make to this country, and our rightful place in the diverse mosaic that is America.”

I'd be curious to hear from those of you going to the National what percentage of the dealers and what percentage of the attendees there are white and what percentage are women (excluding those who are just there to keep their boyfriend/husband/son happy)....

Ted Clayton

[judsonhamlin]

At the risk of diving in here, I never understood why the US Army named bases/forts after CSA military figures like Lee, Bragg, Hood and Hill who actively fought and led troops and whose orders caused the deaths of thousands of US Army soldiers. I would not expect the British Army to name one of their bases after James Connolly or Michael Collins, nor would I expect the French to name anything after Marshal Petain.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

At the risk of diving in here, I never understood why the US Army named bases/forts after CSA military figures like Lee, Bragg, Hood and Hill who actively fought and led troops and whose orders caused the deaths of thousands of US Army soldiers. I would not expect the British Army to name one of their bases after James Connolly or Michael Collins, nor would I expect the French to name anything after Marshal Petain.

Lee at least I think is more complicated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by gawaintheknight

Just to clarify: when someone says that white people are racist, it doesn't mean that all white people actively hate minorities or burn crosses or murder people in a black church or fly a Confederate flag. I think that there are two points to be made: one is that white people have prejudices, which they may not even recognize, because everyone does, whatever race they identify as. The difference is that white people have privilege and power that other races don't have, and because white people have privilege and power, their prejudices turn into racism and oppression in a way that's not possible for races that don't have privilege and power.

A classic article about white privilege: https://nationalseedproject.org/Key-...sible-knapsack


The second point that I think is important is that not all racism comes from individual racist acts. There's also structural racism. There are a lot of articles about that - here's one specifically aimed at Christians by a conservative Christian, but useful even if you're not a Christian yourself:

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/...t-wokeness-its

Given that structural racism exists, and that white people benefit from it, we (I'm white) have three options. One is to be happy with our privilege and tell ourselves we deserve it. One is to recognize that it's a bad thing, but not do anything to change it. That lets us feel good about ourselves, because we aren't actively doing anything wrong, but it perpetuates the status quo and the existing structural racism, even if we don't personally feel hostility to minorities. And the last one is to actively work against it.

Incidentally, the National Council of American Indians had this to say about the name change:

https://www.ncai.org/news/articles/2...name-guardians

“With today’s announcement, the Cleveland baseball team has taken another important step forward in healing the harms its former mascot long caused Native people, in particular Native youth,” said NCAI President Fawn Sharp. “We call on the other professional sports teams and thousands of schools across the country that still cling to their antiquated Native ‘themed’ mascots to immediately follow suit. NCAI also looks forward to continuing its work with the Cleveland Guardians to help grow the national movement of respect for Tribal Nations, cultures, and communities, a movement that values, teaches, and validates who Native people are today, what makes us unique, the many important contributions we make to this country, and our rightful place in the diverse mosaic that is America.”

I'd be curious to hear from those of you going to the National what percentage of the dealers and what percentage of the attendees there are white and what percentage are women (excluding those who are just there to keep their boyfriend/husband/son happy)....

Ted Clayton

It isn't a given, it's an opinion some people have, these articles aren't some sort of definitive gospel. And tell me exactly how I personally am benefiting from this, I must be missing that.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by gawaintheknight

Just to clarify: when someone says that white people are racist, it doesn't mean that all white people actively hate minorities or burn crosses or murder people in a black church or fly a Confederate flag. I think that there are two points to be made: one is that white people have prejudices, which they may not even recognize, because everyone does, whatever race they identify as. The difference is that white people have privilege and power that other races don't have, and because white people have privilege and power, their prejudices turn into racism and oppression in a way that's not possible for races that don't have privilege and power.

Really? All 100 million (or however many) white people have privilege and power? Really???? I can introduce you to some poor people in my community (with white skin color) who expose that to be a blatant lie.

Generally speaking, an intelligent black person has privilege and power over a white idiot. A normal black person has power and privilege over a white dwarf. Young, healthy, active people have privilege and power over old, sick people. And so on.

I've seen far, far too many successful people with darker skin and far, far too many failures with lighter skin to buy into your racist nonsense.

Looking at someone, seeing only their race, and from that tidbit of information declaring them privileged and powerful is outright stupid. And that is what this group think mentality is doing - making idiots out of otherwise intelligent people.

You cannot take a hundred million people and ascribe ANY attribute to each and every one of them. It is absurd, and quite obviously racist.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Really? All 100 million (or however many) white people have privilege and power? Really???? I can introduce you to some poor people in my community (with white skin color) who expose that to be a blatant lie.

Generally speaking, an intelligent black person has privilege and power over a white idiot. A normal black person has power and privilege over a white dwarf. Young, healthy, active people have privilege and power over old, sick people. And so on.

I've seen far, far too many successful people with darker skin and far, far too many failures with lighter skin to buy into your racist nonsense.

Looking at someone, seeing only their race, and from that tidbit of information declaring them privileged and powerful is outright stupid. And that is what this group think mentality is doing - making idiots out of otherwise intelligent people.

You cannot take a hundred million people and ascribe ANY attribute to each and every one of them. It is absurd, and quite obviously racist.

Thank you! I started to respond to that nonsense, but then just hit delete.

[frankbmd]

Pekin is a town in Illinois.

A pekin duck is a white duck imported from China and is a recognized breed by that name.

Pekin High School athletic teams formerly identified as the Pekin Ducks. I don't know if there mascot looked like Donald (Duck not Trump).

Apparently the Chinese community became offended because people were eating Peking duck in Chinese restaurants.

As a result of this kerfuffle, the Pekin High School teams abandoned the Duck are now referred to as the Pekin Dragons.

Doesn't that make your hair stand on end. This could have been the start of a World War, but in central Illinois news travels slowly, not too many people really cared.

i still like the Cleveland Eeries, even tho the season is over before Halloween night.

[Kidnapped18]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Thank you! I started to respond to that nonsense, but then just hit delete.

From a conference earlier this month

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Really? All 100 million (or however many) white people have privilege and power? Really???? I can introduce you to some poor people in my community (with white skin color) who expose that to be a blatant lie.

Generally speaking, an intelligent black person has privilege and power over a white idiot. A normal black person has power and privilege over a white dwarf. Young, healthy, active people have privilege and power over old, sick people. And so on.

I've seen far, far too many successful people with darker skin and far, far too many failures with lighter skin to buy into your racist nonsense.

Looking at someone, seeing only their race, and from that tidbit of information declaring them privileged and powerful is outright stupid. And that is what this group think mentality is doing - making idiots out of otherwise intelligent people.

You cannot take a hundred million people and ascribe ANY attribute to each and every one of them. It is absurd, and quite obviously racist.

There are countless white people living in poverty. They will be glad to hear, no doubt, how they are the beneficiaries of structural racism against blacks. Is that the same structural racism that gave this country a (deservedly) popular two term Black president? Oh wait, he, and every other successful Black person don't count, because they go against the theory.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are countless white people living in poverty. They will be glad to hear, no doubt, how they are the beneficiaries of structural racism against blacks. Is that the same structural racism that gave this country a (deservedly) popular two term Black president? Oh wait, he, and every other successful Black person don't count, because they go against the theory.

What about the 620,000 white soldiers that gave their life in the Civil War that black slaves might be free?

[sdimag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are countless white people living in poverty. They will be glad to hear, no doubt, how they are the beneficiaries of structural racism against blacks. Is that the same structural racism that gave this country a (deservedly) popular two term Black president? Oh wait, he, and every other successful Black person don't count, because they go against the theory.

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

I must say the smugness and superiority of someone telling me I am REALLY a racist at some deep down level because I'm a white from a suburb is beyond offensive.

[gawaintheknight]

Saying that white people have privilege doesn't mean that they don't suffer, or that they can't be oppressed for other characteristics like sexuality, sex, being transgender, etc. It just means that they have privilege relative to people who aren't white.

For example, African-Americans have "the talk" with their kids, no matter how privileged they might be in other ways. Barack Obama had it with his kids. If you are black, the criminal justice system is biased against you, all the way from being profiled to the death penalty. There's lots of evidence to support this. The fact that I am at virtually no risk of being killed in an interaction with the police is a form of privilege.

Or, on a more trivial note, swim caps designed for natural black hair were banned for the Olympics because FINA ruled that no athletes need “caps of such size” and the caps don’t follow “the natural form of the head”. This doesn't happen if you're white, because the decision about what kind of swim caps are appropriately sized or what "the natural form of the head" is are made by white people.

Also it turns out that there's research on racism in baseball card collecting:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...90952401000286

I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to accuse anyone of anything, I'm just trying to provide an explanation. This has sort of become a political thread, since the question of the extent of racism in America has always been a political one, but I am trying to be civil and I think it's an important discussion to have.

Ted Clayton

Originally Posted by Mark17

Really? All 100 million (or however many) white people have privilege and power? Really???? I can introduce you to some poor people in my community (with white skin color) who expose that to be a blatant lie.

Generally speaking, an intelligent black person has privilege and power over a white idiot. A normal black person has power and privilege over a white dwarf. Young, healthy, active people have privilege and power over old, sick people. And so on.

I've seen far, far too many successful people with darker skin and far, far too many failures with lighter skin to buy into your racist nonsense.

Looking at someone, seeing only their race, and from that tidbit of information declaring them privileged and powerful is outright stupid. And that is what this group think mentality is doing - making idiots out of otherwise intelligent people.

You cannot take a hundred million people and ascribe ANY attribute to each and every one of them. It is absurd, and quite obviously racist.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by gawaintheknight

I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to accuse anyone of anything, I'm just trying to provide an explanation. This has sort of become a political thread, since the question of the extent of racism in America has always been a political one, but I am trying to be civil and I think it's an important discussion to have.

Ted Clayton

Ted, the example I come back to is an NBER study on the affect that ethnic names has on job interview callbacks, when controlled for other issues.

Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal? A Field Experiment on Labor Market Discrimination

[gawaintheknight]

Here's a recent discussion that might be interesting:

https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/07/17/pr...k-lives-matter

"Baseball is an expensive sport: Many play year-round, spending as much as $4,000 to play in the winter. They return to their high school teams more polished—and more likely to get playing time—than the kids who can’t afford the extra coaching. According to the Brookings Institution, the average net worth of a white family in 2016 was $171,000. The average net worth of a Black family was $17,150. That alone puts young Black players at a disadvantage."

Does this mean that all white people have more money than all Black people? It does not. Does it mean that the system is full of white people actively working to keep Black people out of the sport? It does not. Does it mean that, overall, white people have an advantage that Black people don't because wealth in this country is tied to race? Yes. It's systemic, not based on intentionally racist actions by individuals.

Also, there's research on whether race affects rookie card values for Hall of Fame players. Google "Race, performance, and baseball card values" and you should get it.



Ted Clayton

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by gawaintheknight

For example, African-Americans have "the talk" with their kids, no matter how privileged they might be in other ways. Barack Obama had it with his kids. If you are black, the criminal justice system is biased against you

If you are male, the justice system is even more biased against you. Why is that never mentioned?

Originally Posted by gawaintheknight

The fact that I am at virtually no risk of being killed in an interaction with the police is a form of privilege.

Pretty much everyone who is not armed has virtually no risk of being killed in an interaction with the police. 81 unarmed people in 2020 killed by police, an average of 49 per year by lightning. And recent statistics have shown that, on a per-interaction basis, whites are actually more likely to be killed.

Originally Posted by gawaintheknight

Or, on a more trivial note, swim caps designed for natural black hair were banned for the Olympics because FINA ruled that no athletes need “caps of such size” and the caps don’t follow “the natural form of the head”. This doesn't happen if you're white, because the decision about what kind of swim caps are appropriately sized or what "the natural form of the head" is are made by white people.

FINA absolutely made the wrong decision. One that they will undoubtedly change very, very soon.

None of the comments above should be taken as ignoring any real issues. However, what we have today is an overblown hysteria/reaction driven by media and social media that care not one iota for truth. Consider the false "Hands up, don't shoot" narrative that still pervades the Michael Brown case. The media and social media have so inflamed people that there's no time for investigation or facts - just reactions based on outcomes. No care if something was justified or not. And a lot of that is based on race - the media knows that killings of black people by police are hot news and will run with stories and inflame people without regard to truth or balance. We've all heard of George Floyd and Derek Chauvin. Why has there not been similar mass coverage of Tony Timpa who died in an identical fashion to Floyd - with the added fact that the police literally mocked him as they killed him?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by gawaintheknight

For example, African-Americans have "the talk" with their kids...

2 Things:

1) You are the typical closet racist. Your politically correct term gives it away. How many "African Americans" do you actually know? I live in the 4th largest city in the US and I don't know any "African Americans" (that I know of). I do however know many Black people. Please be sure to mention next how many "African American" friends you have (as is also typical of the closet racist to want to be made known).

2) I had "the talk" with my daughter, 2 step daughters and 1 step son. It went something like this: "If a police officer gives you a lawful command, comply." Whew! That was a hard one.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Awkward name, I'll stick to calling them the "Naps".

If calling them "Indians" is offensive to Indians, isn't calling them "Guardians" likewise offensive to guardians?

And calling them "Naps" would be offensive to Frenchmen.