1919 Ruth vs 2021 Ohtani

packs · #1 08-04-2021, 01:19 PM

I brought it up earlier but Bob Feller debuts in 1936, only a decade after Walter retires. I don't think anyone says Bob Feller threw in the 80s. Is it reasonable to think that the human body evolved so much in such little time? Bob Feller was 17 years old in 1936.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 08-04-2021, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I brought it up earlier but Bob Feller debuts in 1936, only a decade after Walter retires. I don't think anyone says Bob Feller threw in the 80s. Is it reasonable to think that the human body evolved so much in such little time? Bob Feller was 17 years old in 1936.

I wonder how fast Grove threw, that would be interesting.

packs · #3 08-04-2021, 01:41 PM

That's another good example. Bob Feller was measured at 98 in 1946. I don't know how accurate that reading was either and even if it was, I think it's safe to assume he probably threw harder when he had less mileage.

If it is to be believe that Walter was throwing in the low 80s, and Walter retires 20 years before Feller is recorded at 98, how can that evolution be explained? Isn't it more likely the measurements for Walter were flawed?

Tabe · #4 08-04-2021, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I brought it up earlier but Bob Feller debuts in 1936, only a decade after Walter retires. I don't think anyone says Bob Feller threw in the 80s. Is it reasonable to think that the human body evolved so much in such little time? Bob Feller was 17 years old in 1936.

Walter Johnson was 49 years old in 1936. I think it's reasonable to think the arm developed that much in 32 years.

packs · #5 08-04-2021, 01:44 PM

Why? People are still throwing 98 to 100, which is where Feller was measured all the way back in 1946. It is 2021. In nearly 80 years the human body is still at the same peak when it comes to elite heat. Bob Feller was an elite arm in his time and would still be considered an elite arm now. How can 80 years change nothing but mountains were moved between Johnson and Feller?

The human body is only capable of so much. I would contend that elite arms have always thrown close to 100 mph and 100 years from now they will still be throwing 100 mph.

Steve Dalkowski might have been the hardest thrower in history and it wasn't due to any type of modern training. He just had the arm and his arm would have been the same no matter when he was born.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 08-04-2021, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Why? People are still throwing 98 to 100, which is where Feller was measured all the way back in 1946. It is 2021. In nearly 80 years the human body is still at the same peak when it comes to elite heat. Bob Feller was an elite arm in his time and would still be considered an elite arm now. How can 80 years change nothing but mountains were moved between Johnson and Feller?

The human body is only capable of so much. I would contend that elite arms have always thrown close to 100 mph and 100 years from now they will still be throwing 100 mph.

Steve Dalkowski might have been the hardest thrower in history and it wasn't due to any type of modern training. He just had the arm and his arm would have been the same no matter when he was born.

Another point that may support you is that the longest home runs don't really seem to be any longer than they were well back in the day. Something I haven't figured out.

packs · #7 08-04-2021, 02:25 PM

Also a good point. The human body can only do so much in the context of baseball. It can only throw so hard and it can only hit the ball so far. I think these are universal truths for this sport. That's not to say that the body hasn't evolved to dominate other sports in other ways.

mrreality68 · #8 08-04-2021, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Also a good point. The human body can only do so much in the context of baseball. It can only throw so hard and it can only hit the ball so far. I think these are universal truths for this sport. That's not to say that the body hasn't evolved to dominate other sports in other ways.

Bottom Line to Me is I enjoy the History of sports and all those amazing players and I can only hope that many of these current players achieve greatness so I can enjoy them now and my kids/grandkids can enjoy them in the future

Peter_Spaeth · #9 08-04-2021, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Also a good point. The human body can only do so much in the context of baseball. It can only throw so hard and it can only hit the ball so far. I think these are universal truths for this sport. That's not to say that the body hasn't evolved to dominate other sports in other ways.

There are probably theoretical limits to track and field, swimming, etc. and I do think the increments by which records are broken have become pretty tiny, so maybe eventually we'll get to the limit there. That said, back in the day I was running (not competitively but I did follow it), I never would have believed the current marathon times were possible.

molenick · #10 08-04-2021, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Another point that may support you is that the longest home runs don't really seem to be any longer than they were well back in the day. Something I haven't figured out.

I am not sure if Peter's remark was meant to be tongue-in-cheek but you can put me in the camp that is skeptical of the idea that players in the 1920s were hitting multiple 500+ foot home runs even though this is not done with regularity today. People can run faster, jump higher, lift heavier weights, hit a golf ball farther...but cannot hit a baseball farther than people 100 years ago?

Wouldn't the more likely answer be that earlier measurements were largely anecdotal or based on estimates ("some kid said the ball landed here", "I saw Babe hit them over the railroad tracks which must be 600 feet away") or were measured from where a ball stopped rolling. Versus today where we can fairly accurately say how far a ball would have traveled based on exit velocity and launch angle (which I assume is how they come up with current distances since a ball rarely actually lands at the stated distance).

To me Babe Ruth's home run achievements stand alone, especially in comparison to other players of his era. He was the outlier of all outliers. I just don't think we need to make stuff up for this to be true. And saying that there is a similarity between 1919 Ruth and 2021 Ohtani (a starting pitcher who also played a position and hit a lot of home runs) doesn't take away from either player's accomplishments. I think it adds to both players. Ruth because he did something (in a season) that has not happened again for so long and Ohtani because he is doing something (in a season) that was last done by the consensus greatest player ever.

packs · #11 08-04-2021, 03:32 PM

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Dimensions of old stadiums were far larger to the deepest part of the park than today's stadiums. Many of the home runs hit today would have been long fly balls in any other era. If people are hitting the ball farther today, then why did the fences get moved in?

To create offense, of course. Chicks dig the long ball, etc. But my point is that people aren't hitting the ball further. The game has catered to the opposite.

I think you're also skipping over some important details in what you're saying. Golf, for instance, has completely overhauled it's tools. Nobody hitting a golf ball today is using similar materials to someone 100 years ago. But baseball is relatively unchanged. The ball is wound differently, but it's the same weight it's always been. Bats are still made out of the same wood they've always been made out of. The mound is still the same distance away.

Peter_Spaeth · #12 08-04-2021, 03:40 PM

Wasn't being tongue in cheek. People measured home runs back then, thus the term, tape measure shot. Wasn't just anecdote and tall tale. Ruth hit some balls out of parks like Forbes Field (his last game), no? And I think one of his way back with Boston was measured at close to 600. Move the discussion forward, is anyone hitting them further than Kingman did 40 years ago?

molenick · #13 08-04-2021, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I think you're also skipping over some important details in what you're saying. Golf, for instance, has completely overhauled it's tools. Nobody hitting a golf ball today is using similar materials to someone 100 years ago. But baseball is relatively unchanged. The ball is wound differently, but it's the same weight it's always been. Bats are still made out of the same wood they've always been made out of. The mound is still the same distance away.

Yes, I was thinking about that with golf, that would explain it (I didn't want to overload my post). But I guess what I was saying is that with essentially the same material, people today are not hitting the ball farther than distances reported 100 years ago.

I guess my inclination was to conclude that the distances reported may not have been accurate. But I guess one can also conclude that players today (except for maybe Stanton, Ohtani, and Judge) cannot hit the ball as far as players used to be able to hit them. I really don't know, of course.

Tabe · #14 08-04-2021, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Another point that may support you is that the longest home runs don't really seem to be any longer than they were well back in the day. Something I haven't figured out.

I don't believe for a second that the distances from back then are accurate or measured in the same way as today's home runs.

Tabe · #15 08-04-2021, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Why? People are still throwing 98 to 100, which is where Feller was measured all the way back in 1946. It is 2021. In nearly 80 years the human body is still at the same peak when it comes to elite heat. Bob Feller was an elite arm in his time and would still be considered an elite arm now. How can 80 years change nothing but mountains were moved between Johnson and Feller?

Feller is one guy. And he wouldn't be the fastest guy if he's throwing 98 today. Or even top 15 or 20. If Johnson was really throwing 89 - or 91 - then that's a 7-9 mph jump in 30 years. And the top guys now are throwing 104 or 105 - a 6-7 mph jump since Feller. Except now there's DOZENS of guys throwing 98-101 where back in Feller's day, there was....Feller. There's a physiological maximum for the human body in terms of throwing hard. And now there's a lot more guys that are a lot closer to that max then ever before.

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