ebay finds that PWCC engaged in shill bidding?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

You can defend Mastro if you want, but I think driving up someones' bid when you have access to their ceiling bid is very, very wrong and would result in artificially high prices.

LOL now who is mischaracterizing? Defending Mastro? I am simply trying to understand your position using the Socractic method. I am not defending ANY of it, I think it's all manipulation in case you didn't notice. A comment really not worthy of you, Mark. Surely you're a better debater than that.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL now who is mischaracterizing? Defending Mastro? I am simply trying to understand your position using the Socractic method. I am not defending ANY of it, I think it's all manipulation in case you didn't notice. A comment really not worthy of you, Mark. Surely you're a better debater than that.

Yes I know. But your invoking the name of a convicted criminal and then trying to put me on the defensive with it was the first salvo.

I've stated my opinion; to restate would be redundant. And I agree with what Bob said too. If people will pay a certain price for something, then that is what the price is that people will pay.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Yes I know. But your invoking the name of a convicted criminal and then trying to put me on the defensive with it was the first salvo.

I've stated my opinion; to restate would be redundant. And I agree with what Bob said too. If people will pay a certain price for something, then that is what the price is that people will pay.

OK I think we've had a good discussion, but if you want to have the last word, my final point would be your reasoning is circular or maybe just tautological.

[FrankWakefield]

Maybe take all of this who can argue best, misuse of logic, and Maestro stuff to a new thread... Argument Digression might be an apt name.

Please... back to PWCC. THAT is some news. I've bought a few cards from them (maybe I should say got tricked into overpaying for a few cards). Getting this out there was good for the board and everyone, thank you Peter. To a slight extent I'd usually be conservative in my bidding with them because of that crap where they were "protecting" us bidders by not disclosing identifying info (I can't recall how that eBay label read...). I thought that was a bit of BS that invited or masked shilling, and that was before the "Vault" crap. Only two steps remaining for PWCC was their own auction house and their in house grading company. Golly, a fella could buy a card and pay them a commission, then get it graded and pay for that, then 'Vault' the card and pay for that. What a deal!!!

[kailes2872]

Peter,
I ask this as an honest question - no snarkiness, I promise, just curious...

You have an awesome PSA 6 53 Bowman Ford for sale on the BST page. You have had several very nice examples of cards over the years that tend to be at the top of their grade. Your 54 Bowman Williams comes to mind. I don't tend to buy fixed priced items because I am convinced that I am usually the fool overpaying. Therefore, I buy through auctions. In some cases, I end up paying more for the auction item (versus the fixed priced item) - or pay a tad less for a copy that is not as nice. Hopefully I am not shilled, but more than likely, I have been victim over time.

But I digress...

When you determine prices for your items, do you pull out PWCC comps? Do you have a general formula? Again, no offense meant. It just seems that it would be impossible to price an item without taking the PWCC prices into consideration and not have it immediately purchased and be considered a bargain for the purchaser.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by kailes2872

Peter,
I ask this as an honest question - no snarkiness, I promise, just curious...

You have an awesome PSA 6 53 Bowman Ford for sale on the BST page. You have had several very nice examples of cards over the years that tend to be at the top of their grade. Your 54 Bowman Williams comes to mind. I don't tend to buy fixed priced items because I am convinced that I am usually the fool overpaying. Therefore, I buy through auctions. In some cases, I end up paying more for the auction item (versus the fixed priced item) - or pay a tad less for a copy that is not as nice. Hopefully I am not shilled, but more than likely, I have been victim over time.

But I digress...

When you determine prices for your items, do you pull out PWCC comps? Do you have a general formula? Again, no offense meant. It just seems that it would be impossible to price an item without taking the PWCC prices into consideration and not have it immediately purchased and be considered a bargain for the purchaser.

No set formula. Case by case and some is by feel, but if I didn't have a good feel I would typically look at past sales to get an idea, if PWCC prices were obvious outliers I would not give them any weight. Sometimes though I go more by my general perception of how much the market for a certain type of card has gone up or down since I bought it rather than relying on direct comps.

[kailes2872]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No set formula. Case by case and some is by feel, but if I didn't have a good feel I would typically look at past sales to get an idea, if PWCC prices were obvious outliers I would not give them any weight. Sometimes though I go more by my general perception of how much the market for a certain type of card has gone up or down since I bought it rather than relying on direct comps.

Thanks - makes sense and I appreciate the response.

[Bobbycee]

AUCTION INTEGRITY & OVERSIGHT
Safeguarding the integrity of bidding on our auctions is our highest priority, as is the assurance that every item we broker is accurately described and authentic. For the trading card marketplace to function effectively, honesty and integrity must be ensured. Collectors deserve a bidding environment that is 100% legitimate and free from intervention by the auction house, submitters, friends of submitters, friends of the auction house, or anyone else who seeks to exert artificial influence over the sale price[/B].

From their own website!
They have so souls...

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No set formula. Case by case and some is by feel, but if I didn't have a good feel I would typically look at past sales to get an idea, if PWCC prices were obvious outliers I would not give them any weight. Sometimes though I go more by my general perception of how much the market for a certain type of card has gone up or down since I bought it rather than relying on direct comps.

There may not be a better way to do it. Who knows what went on at times, and I don't doubt that there are highly questionable "sales" of higher-end items (especially with examples like the Floyd Mayweather card that Exhibitman showed earlier).

But I'll share the one auction lot I won from them this year. Final price was at the very low end for centered PSA 9s, and it's obvious from the bid history that there was no shill bidding.

So either my auction was a rare outlier (and there is some huge boiler room concept happening where endless people frantically kept track of everything and ensure that artificially high prices are always being created), or mine is similar to countless other nice (but modest) auction items that were ok, and the focus of any shenanigans was usually on a larger scale.

I would guess the latter.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/353540601951

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

There may not be a better way to do it. Who knows what went on at times, and I don't doubt that there are highly questionable "sales" of higher-end items (especially with examples like the Floyd Mayweather card that Exhibitman showed earlier).

But I'll share the one auction lot I won from them this year. Final price was at the very low end for centered PSA 9s, and it's obvious from the bid history that there was no shill bidding.

So either my auction was a rare outlier (and there is some huge boiler room concept happening where endless people frantically kept track of everything and ensure that artificially high prices are always being created), or mine is similar to countless other nice (but modest) auction items that were ok, and the focus of any shenanigans was usually on a larger scale.

I would guess the latter.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/353540601951

A lot of their stuff is fine. Lots of honest collectors consign to them and even some honest dealers. It's the dishonest dealer and card doctor consignments where all the BS is.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I've stated my opinion; to restate would be redundant. And I agree with what Bob said too. If people will pay a certain price for something, then that is what the price is that people will pay.

Except that after that sale occurs, that buyer is no longer in the market and the “price” becomes what the next person will pay. And now we are back to the auction scenario of second highest bidder plus one increment

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Except that after that sale occurs, that buyer is no longer in the market and the “price” becomes what the next person will pay. And now we are back to the auction scenario of second highest bidder plus one increment

I see your point. In theory, replay that auction with the high bidder out of the picture and the top guy left is the under bidder.

Now, I have something else to consider regarding market "price" vs. market "value." Suppose you consign a card to an AH, they charge you 10% commission. High bid is $100, so the bidder pays $120 with the 20% BP. The price to the buyer is $120, but the net value to the seller is $90. So what is the value of the card? According to this auction result, you can get $90 for it.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I see your point. In theory, replay that auction with the high bidder out of the picture and the top guy left is the under bidder.

Now, I have something else to consider regarding market "price" vs. market "value." Suppose you consign a card to an AH, they charge you 10% commission. High bid is $100, so the bidder pays $120 with the 20% BP. The price to the buyer is $120, but the net value to the seller is $90. So what is the value of the card? According to this auction result, you can get $90 for it.

Except maybe not every potential buyer was aware of or participating in that first auction. Or other bidders in that first auction were focused on other cards then and next time would focus on the particular card in your example. Or who says that first buyer didn't feel they got a bargain and goes after the same card again in the next auction (lots of collectors have multiples of the same card). And so on and so on...........

I think typically people consider the value of something as what they pay for it, not what they net from selling it. Market value and market price are kind of the same thing. You're talking more market price/value versus net price/value. In your example the value of the card would probably be defined as what was paid for it......$120.