ebay finds that PWCC engaged in shill bidding?

Peter_Spaeth · #1 08-20-2021, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankish

I guess we can't all be as smart as you.

It has nothing to do with me. Just paying attention to the facts.

Frankish · #2 08-20-2021, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It has nothing to do with me. Just paying attention to the facts.

Like I said, wish we were all so intelligent. To see the signal for the noise. To be able to clearly delineate in black and white the entirety of an enterprise. I am truly impressed.

MattyC · #3 08-20-2021, 09:22 PM

If someone uses an auction house or consignment service to create a fake sale, and they complete the transaction so as to get the data point in the sales record, who is at fault� the person consigning and buying their card, or the company that lists the card and processes the transaction?

BobC · #4 08-20-2021, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattyC

If someone uses an auction house or consignment service to create a fake sale, and they complete the transaction so as to get the data point in the sales record, who is at fault� the person consigning and buying their card, or the company that lists the card and processes the transaction?

Clearly the person consigning/buying the card, but did the company listing the card and processing the transaction know what the consigner/buyer was doing or reasonably should have known? If a no to that question, then no to the company really being at fault, IMO.

Snowman · #5 08-21-2021, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattyC

If someone uses an auction house or consignment service to create a fake sale, and they complete the transaction so as to get the data point in the sales record, who is at fault� the person consigning and buying their card, or the company that lists the card and processes the transaction?

The problem with this theory is that one data point, especially when it's an outlier, doesn't really change the market prices. People will just discard it or ignore it. Everyone in this hobby knows that not all prior transactions are valid for one reason or another. You can't just fake "sell" a 10k card for 20k, then relist it and expect to get 20k for it, or even 11k. It takes numerous independent valid sales to move the market.

MattyC · #6 08-21-2021, 01:19 PM

That was not a theory I posted. I was just asking a rhetorical question, to underscore how it is hard to blame any seller or AH for what may be fraudulent transactions carried out by a card's owner.

That said, especially with extremely rare cards that transact infrequently, an outlier sale can sometimes move the market. If enough buyers, and sometimes it can just be one or two, choose to interpret an outlier as a sign that a heretofore undervalued or under-appreciated card may be getting its time in the sun, the outlier make "take" and affect the next sale.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 08-21-2021, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattyC

That was not a theory I posted. I was just asking a rhetorical question, to underscore how it is hard to blame any seller or AH for what may be fraudulent transactions carried out by a card's owner.

That said, especially with extremely rare cards that transact infrequently, an outlier sale can sometimes move the market. If enough buyers, and sometimes it can just be one or two, choose to interpret an outlier as a sign that a heretofore undervalued or under-appreciated card may be getting its time in the sun, the outlier make "take" and affect the next sale.

FOMO is potent stuff.

MattyC · #8 08-21-2021, 01:35 PM

Indeed it is, Peter. And sometimes one can act on it and get ahead of a trend. For example, when I sold my Gehrig RC to a member here, I sold it for a then-record of 17k. I had paid 3k and thought it was a good move, as I don't like oversized cards. Some may have seen that one sale and thought it was a sign of things to come for that card— and they would have been right to act on that outlier and grab one.

theuclakid · #9 08-21-2021, 01:32 PM

IMO the auction house or consignment service is ultimately responsible as it is their platform, and they are allowing these fraudulent consignors to use their platform to bid on their own consigned items (shill bidding), and then not pay for the item if they win, ultimately to create a false selling point....then the item is re-listed...IMO PWCC has not been the only online seller who has permitted this in their auctions

Bruce Perry

Snowman · #10 08-21-2021, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theuclakid

IMO the auction house or consignment service is ultimately responsible as it is their platform, and they are allowing these fraudulent consignors to use their platform to bid on their own consigned items (shill bidding), and then not pay for the item if they win, ultimately to create a false selling point....then the item is re-listed...IMO PWCC has not been the only online seller who has permitted this in their auctions

Bruce Perry

I would agree with you if you're talking about their Premier Auctions that they recently started hosting on their own platform, but historically, all of PWCC's sales have been hosted on eBay's platform. eBay is the only party that has access to all the relevant data to be able to determine who is shill bidding. PWCC has no access to this data. How can they possibly be held responsible? At least PWCC bans non-paying bidders from participating in future auctions. That's about as much as they can possibly do to prevent shill bidding.

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