ebay finds that PWCC engaged in shill bidding?

Peter_Spaeth · #1 08-22-2021, 02:04 PM

Whatever Travis. Defend away. You could spin a bullet hole through the head I am sure into some ordinary ho hum thing. Talk to me when he's indicted, for now I'm done with this.

Mark17 · #2 08-22-2021, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Whatever Travis. Defend away. You could spin a bullet hole through the head I am sure into some ordinary ho hum thing. Talk to me when he's indicted, for now I'm done with this.

I've read this thread top to bottom and I don't see Travis defending anybody.

He's being logical (as opposed to the pitchfork wielding mob who considers anything other than vilifying PWCC to be sheer heresy.)

Snowman · #3 08-22-2021, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Whatever Travis. Defend away. You could spin a bullet hole through the head I am sure into some ordinary ho hum thing. Talk to me when he's indicted, for now I'm done with this.

I'm not defending PWCC or Brent. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see him indicted for shady behavior some day. I'm simply pointing out that these Mayweather card sales are not abnormal buying and selling behavior. If you want to find a zinger that's going to catch this guy, this isn't it.

Fuddjcal · #4 08-22-2021, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

I'm not defending PWCC or Brent. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see him indicted for shady behavior some day. I'm simply pointing out that these Mayweather card sales are not abnormal buying and selling behavior. If you want to find a zinger that's going to catch this guy, this isn't it.

Sorry If I was a little harsh. It's just that IMHO, you are defending Brent Mastro, just by doing business with the know criminal. I actually feel sorry that he shill bidded the trimmed card up your Tuchas (took/us). I have a few cards in that range and I would never trust a known criminal or line their companies pockets with that kind of money. I actually try to stand for something.

I'd have a lawyer by now and trying to get my money back from him and let him ream someone else with his fish stories. I wish you all the best and again, my personal apologies for the tough love. Good luck and enjoy your collection anyway you'd like.

drcy · #5 08-22-2021, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Sorry If I was a little harsh. It's just that IMHO, you are defending Brent Mastro, just by doing business with the know criminal. I actually feel sorry that he shill bidded the trimmed card up your Tuchas (took/us). I have a few cards in that range and I would never trust a known criminal or line their companies pockets with that kind of money. I actually try to stand for something.

I'd have a lawyer by now and trying to get my money back from him and let him ream someone else with his fish stories. I wish you all the best and again, my personal apologies for the tough love. Good luck and enjoy your collection anyway you'd like.

Akin to the people who would justified bidding on authentic stuff in Coaches Corner auctions (The auctions did have some minor JSA/PSA certed items). Irrelevant to that they were able to avoid fake items, their purchases helped keep Coaches Corner in business.

Mark17 · #6 08-22-2021, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

Akin to the people who would justified bidding on authentic stuff in Coaches Corner auctions (The auctions did have some minor JSA/PSA certed items). Irrelevant to that they were able to avoid fake items, their purchases helped keep Coaches Corner in business.

There are prominent, frequent posters here who rip PSA a new one every couple of days, who also sell higher-graded cards in PSA slabs.

(Why? Because PSA slabbed cards fetch more money.)

JollyElm · #7 08-22-2021, 04:47 PM

347. Kvetch-22
The principle that the people who bitterly complain the most about PSA�s horrific business practices are the same ones who gladly keep sending in more cards to be graded, because PSA slabs deliver the highest sales prices.

See also: �Hegemony Crickets!� - an expression referring to the metaphorical sound of silence as the venerated PSA refuses to ever address even a single one of the countless accusations of malfeasance made against them.

Snowman · #8 08-22-2021, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jollyelm

347. kvetch-22
the principle that the people who bitterly complain the most about psa�s horrific business practices are the same ones who gladly keep sending in more cards to be graded, because psa slabs deliver the highest sales prices.

see also: �hegemony crickets!� - an expression referring to the metaphorical sound of silence as the venerated psa refuses to ever address even a single one of the countless accusations of malfeasance made against them.

lol

Snowman · #9 08-22-2021, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Sorry If I was a little harsh. It's just that IMHO, you are defending Brent Mastro, just by doing business with the know criminal. I actually feel sorry that he shill bidded the trimmed card up your Tuchas (took/us). I have a few cards in that range and I would never trust a known criminal or line their companies pockets with that kind of money. I actually try to stand for something.

I'd have a lawyer by now and trying to get my money back from him and let him ream someone else with his fish stories. I wish you all the best and again, my personal apologies for the tough love. Good luck and enjoy your collection anyway you'd like.

Thanks, and no worries. No offense taken. When I made my offer on the Mantle, it was made with the assumption that it had been altered in some way, whether that was from micro trimming or recoloring or card stock manipulation or whatever. It doesn't bother me. I care more about eye appeal and authenticity. In my eyes, it allowed me to get a 52 Mantle with the eye appeal of a 7 for the price of a nice 3. But I fully recognize that to many collectors, it is borderline worthless because they don't want altered cards in their collection. I can respect that viewpoint, I just don't share it. I personally love the card.

Snowman · #10 08-24-2021, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Whatever Travis. Defend away. You could spin a bullet hole through the head I am sure into some ordinary ho hum thing. Talk to me when he's indicted, for now I'm done with this.

This is a false equivalency though. This isn't a 'my opinion' vs 'your onion' question either. This is a verifiable claim that can be answered simply by looking at the data. We're specifically discussing the 3 sales of a Mayweather PSA 9 rookie card. Your claim is that they are representative of extremely suspicious behavior and that the hammer prices for those auctions are completely out of line with other commensurate sales of the same card.

An example of "spinning" a debate regarding fraud in this hobby would be if someone were to say that a card wasn't "trimmed" but rather it was "professionally restored by a curator to its original intended state". That would be "spin". I have done nothing of the sort in this debate. What I did was equivalent to saying, "no, that card is not trimmed and I can prove it" followed by a link to a YouTube video where the card in question was pulled in its current condition straight from the pack.

Your claim about the Mayweather card is false. I disproved your claim with data from all commensurate sales of this card which clearly show that the hammer prices of the auctions in question were all perfectly in line with the market and other commensurate sales of that time. You can't just call that "spin". You can say, "Oh, my mistake. I was wrong about this card." You can even follow that up with, "but it doesn't change my mind about PWCC" or something similar. That would be a perfectly reasonable position to hold. But you can't discard the evidence that disproves your claim and then recast it as "spin" without looking unreasonable.

cardsagain74 · #11 08-24-2021, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is a false equivalency though. This isn't a 'my opinion' vs 'your onion' question either. This is a verifiable claim that can be answered simply by looking at the data. We're specifically discussing the 3 sales of a Mayweather PSA 9 rookie card. Your claim is that they are representative of extremely suspicious behavior and that the hammer prices for those auctions are completely out of line with other commensurate sales of the same card.

An example of "spinning" a debate regarding fraud in this hobby would be if someone were to say that a card wasn't "trimmed" but rather it was "professionally restored by a curator to its original intended state". That would be "spin". I have done nothing of the sort in this debate. What I did was equivalent to saying, "no, that card is not trimmed and I can prove it" followed by a link to a YouTube video where the card in question was pulled in its current condition straight from the pack.

Your claim about the Mayweather card is false. I disproved your claim with data from all commensurate sales of this card which clearly show that the hammer prices of the auctions in question were all perfectly in line with the market and other commensurate sales of that time. You can't just call that "spin". You can say, "Oh, my mistake. I was wrong about this card." You can even follow that up with, "but it doesn't change my mind about PWCC" or something similar. That would be a perfectly reasonable position to hold. But you can't discard the evidence that disproves your claim and then recast it as "spin" without looking unreasonable.

Now you're the one using false equivalencies.

Showing that those listed (assumed) sales were around current market prices does not prove your point. Though most of us were not disputing that as part of the "suspicious" argument anyway.

Some of us feel that (given how people hate to take any losses, and especially quick ones) that it's odd that anyone would continue to sell that particular Mayweather when they did. Especially with a company that has no qualms about being pretty slimy.

You disagree and feel that it was simply people panicking.

These are not objective matters, and you're inaccurately trying to make them so and ignoring a key opposing point to falsely "prove" what you want to assume

Republicaninmass · #12 08-24-2021, 09:19 PM

Still trying

Peter_Spaeth · #13 08-24-2021, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

Now you're the one using false equivalencies.

Showing that those listed (assumed) sales were around current market prices does not prove your point. Though most of us were not disputing that as part of the "suspicious" argument anyway.

Some of us feel that (given how people hate to take any losses, and especially quick ones) that it's odd that anyone would continue to sell that particular Mayweather when they did. Especially with a company that has no qualms about being pretty slimy.

You disagree and feel that it was simply people panicking.

These are not objective matters, and you're inaccurately trying to make them so and ignoring a key opposing point to falsely "prove" what you want to assume

If the proposition is, two consecutive people did not win this card and consign it right back to PWCC, then you are right, prices don't disprove that.

cardsagain74 · #14 08-24-2021, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If the proposition is, two consecutive people did not win this card and consign it right back to PWCC, then no, prices don't disprove that.

I never said that proved anything. All I said was that he showed that the listed PWCC sales were around other market sales at the time. And even specifically worded it "assumed" sales.

Peter, you seem like a good guy, but I've never seen anyone find so many ways to argue with people on all sides of debates like you do (even when they agree with you, like here). I've made my suspicion about the sale(s) clear :-)

Peter_Spaeth · #15 08-24-2021, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

I never said that proved anything. All I said was that he showed that the listed PWCC sales were around other market sales at the time. And even specifically worded it "assumed" sales.

Peter, you seem like a good guy, but I've never seen anyone find so many ways to argue with people on all sides of debates like you do (even when they agree with you, like here). I've made my suspicion about the sale(s) clear :-)

I was AGREEING with you. Restating your point. Edited it to be clear.

cardsagain74 · #16 08-24-2021, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I was AGREEING with you. Restating your point. Edited it to be clear.

No problem. It came off a different way to me (from the wording)!

conor912 · #17 08-24-2021, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

This is a verifiable claim that can be answered simply by looking at the data.

Have you not noticed how many people in this country don�t care about verifiable data?

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