Ethical Concerns Regarding Heritage?

swarmee · #1 08-29-2021, 06:23 PM

https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/...Published=true

Now they're digging further into the connection between WATA, Goldin Auctions, PSA, Collectors Holdings (Nat Turner et al), and their PR firm. Seems very familiar.

MattyC · #2 08-29-2021, 07:34 PM

Great article. I love how it calls out legacy media for breathlessly and recklessly reporting all these record sales— when these institutions should be digging into the self-dealing and corruption rampant in collecting.

Goldin says, “firewall” between the AH and PSA — both owned by the Turner cadre. But then sells full synergistic integration to a group of insiders.

We now have an AH and TPGs owned by the same group, with the AH selling collections graded by the in house TPG — and in some cases the collections are owned by directors of the TPG. It’s the Wild West.

Anyone who thinks the rising prices are due solely to natural collector demand is beyond naive. Favorite quote from article:

“…A picture is emerging of a relatively small cadre of men who sought to produce a new alternative asset class out of thin air and become even richer than they already are. In establishing this new asset class, these men benefited from the ongoing and stunning lack of collectibles regulation from the FTC—indeed, one of the men, James Halperin, had cause to know that even grave misconduct in the collectibles market is often met with an easily survivable, slap-on-the-wrist FTC fine—as well as new tax regulations involving luxury collectibles that were written by one of the men in question.

These men were aided, too, by fawning, uncritical coverage of their activities by the legacy media, with embarrassingly credulous headlines that did little to question the conspicuously inorganic nature of the nation’s newest market bubble. And in one case, a History Channel “reality” show knowingly or negligently let two men from this cadre pretend not to know one another on-air—a historically galling television segment that played a critical role in moving the video game market from a tiny, niche market to the eight- or even nine-figure one it has become just thirty months later.”

Peter_Spaeth · #3 08-29-2021, 07:39 PM

I miss the good old days when all you had to worry about was card doctors, PSA and SGC grading Hall's and Forman's cards, and some AH shill bidding. Now it's all so much more corporate and complicated.

chriskim · #4 08-29-2021, 07:44 PM

i am less than half way and the info in that video are so sensitive..... Great investigation!

MattyC · #5 08-29-2021, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I miss the good old days when all you had to worry about was card doctors, PSA and SGC grading Hall's and Forman's cards, and some AH shill bidding. Now it's all so much more corporate and complicated.

Well said, Peter. Doctors and shills almost seem Rockwellian and quaint compared to all these corporate self dealings. But Turner owns cards and Kahn owns games so they are just collectors like us and will be White Knights to the industry

More like wolves in sheeps’ clothing LOL.

The real “firewall” — to use Goldin’s now infamous word— needs to be between our love of our collections and our distaste for what these guys and their companies are doing. That’s a firewall I am determined to see hold.

As long as when I hang with my cards, it’s all pure enjoyment, and no thoughts of that shambolic corruption enter the mind, the wall is holding

Peter_Spaeth · #6 08-29-2021, 08:04 PM

A firewall would mean Goldin can't submit to PSA and nobody affiliated with PSA can auction through Goldin. Uh.... hmmmm �. I doubt it?

Seven · #7 08-29-2021, 08:24 PM

After reading horror stories about cards looking noticibly different on heritages website as opposed to in person, I said to myself how I'll be more careful when buying things going forward, in light of what's gone on, I'm not sure If I will participate in one of their auctions again.

It does not surprise me that there is shadiness and corruption in the hobby. From everything I've read and watched it's always been around but has taken different forms throughout the years.

marzoumanian · #8 08-29-2021, 07:42 PM

I have a headache after reading this piece! But along the way I kept saying, "Wow."
It is the Wild West now more so than it ever was during the Mastro Auctions scandal. It's scary and disturbing when you see how all these companies are intertwined and scratching each other's backs. Even if readers here skim some of this looooong article it is well worth their time to review, IMHO. Please educate yourselves.

conor912 · #9 08-29-2021, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/...Published=true

Now they're digging further into the connection between WATA, Goldin Auctions, PSA, Collectors Holdings (Nat Turner et al), and their PR firm. Seems very familiar.

This article is insane.

conor912 · #10 08-29-2021, 11:21 PM

I�m also curious to hear people�s thoughts on the difference between building a bubble vs. building a market. Surely there is overlap, but where is the line between good faith and sketchiness, sketchiness and law-breaking?

Fred · #11 08-29-2021, 11:50 PM

Great video. It's worth the time to watch it. This is just another confirmation about the sad state of collectibles. Not just collectibles, but the sad state of society, in general.

Snowman · #12 08-30-2021, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conor912

I�m also curious to hear people�s thoughts on the difference between building a bubble vs. building a market. Surely there is overlap, but where is the line between good faith and sketchiness, sketchiness and law-breaking?

Exactly! That's precisely why I couldn't get through the video. His phrasing was so ridiculous. As if promoting an emerging market couldn't possibly be anything other than fraud. LMAO. That's ridiculous.

Again, I'll wait for actual detectives to investigate if there is any wrongdoing before I cast judgment.

Fred · #13 08-30-2021, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Exactly! That's precisely why I couldn't get through the video. His phrasing was so ridiculous. As if promoting an emerging market couldn't possibly be anything other than fraud. LMAO. That's ridiculous.

Again, I'll wait for actual detectives to investigate if there is any wrongdoing before I cast judgment.

phrasing? Was it that difficult to understand the general premise of the video? Or are you saying that you believe the video is baseless in fact and an attempt to smear the reputations of "legitimate" businessmen?

Aquarian Sports Cards · #14 08-30-2021, 07:09 AM

If you haven't already, watch The Big Short. If you have, watch it again.

drcy · #15 08-30-2021, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Exactly! That's precisely why I couldn't get through the video. His phrasing was so ridiculous. As if promoting an emerging market couldn't possibly be anything other than fraud. LMAO. That's ridiculous.

Again, I'll wait for actual detectives to investigate if there is any wrongdoing before I cast judgment.

There's nothing wrong with being a contrarian or dissenter to prevailing thought, but there seems to be a consistency in your arguments across different threads.

Lorewalker · #16 08-30-2021, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

There's nothing wrong with being a contrarian or dissenter to prevailing thought, but there seems to be a consistency in your arguments across different threads.

Yeah he is completely nauseating. I see why he was booted off of BO. Let's hope it happens here soon.

Leon · #17 08-30-2021, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Yeah he is completely nauseating. I see why he was booted off of BO. Let's hope it happens here soon.

Expressing an unpopular position isn't going to get someone booted from here. Other things will but not that...

Peter_Spaeth · #18 08-30-2021, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Yeah he is completely nauseating. I see why he was booted off of BO. Let's hope it happens here soon.

Meanwhile

Snowman

This message is hidden because Snowman is on your ignore list.

perezfan · #19 08-30-2021, 03:51 PM

Awesome and well-researched video. Incredibly damning to the major players creating this bubble. Equally interesting is that just prior to the episode on shill bidding was a paid advertisement for PWCC. I thought it was a joke at first, but it was completely legit.

PWCC might want to reconsider where to place their ads, as it was about as effective as an Oreo Cookie commercial interrupting a Keto Diet video.

Snowman · #20 09-01-2021, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Yeah he is completely nauseating. I see why he was booted off of BO. Let's hope it happens here soon.

Do you really want a forum where everyone just falls in line, believing the same things without questioning each other's viewpoints? Perhaps you've lost sight of what the word 'forum' even means in the first place?

Forum - a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

Feel free to ignore me if you don't like reading my contrarian views. I'm not asking anyone to share my opinions (although I'm happy to accept a friendly wager if you'd like to bet against them).

Perhaps you'd like to invest in "AI grading"? I hear it's all the rage.

Tabe · #21 08-30-2021, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/...Published=true

Now they're digging further into the connection between WATA, Goldin Auctions, PSA, Collectors Holdings (Nat Turner et al), and their PR firm. Seems very familiar.

Highly recommend everyone read this predecessor article to the one linked above by swarmee:

https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/...nal-video-game

It's a long read with a lot of detail but highly worthwhile. If nothing else, it's worth reading just to see the embedded Youtube video of the Pawn Stars segment with the Super Mario game. That segment is so brutally scripted and obviously fake it will make your head spin.

Fred · #22 08-30-2021, 06:21 PM

I just looked at the Goldin Auctions offering - lots of Video Games and WATA graded material with starting values above what a green T206 Cobb would go for (ok, not in 9.4 condition as graded by WATA), but still, how many people out there would rather have a common video game with a label that says its PRIMO than a nice piece of baseball history like a green (or for that matter, any) T206 Cobb.

Am I missing something here?

perezfan · #23 08-30-2021, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred

I just looked at the Goldin Auctions offering - lots of Video Games and WATA graded material with starting values above what a green T206 Cobb would go for (ok, not in 9.4 condition as graded by WATA), but still, how many people out there would rather have a common video game with a label that says its PRIMO than a nice piece of baseball history like a green (or for that matter, any) T206 Cobb.

Am I missing something here?

Especially a common video game with no WATA Population Report and a jacked-up history of fake sales and false prices realized.

I'll take the Cobb.

bnorth · #24 08-30-2021, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

Especially a common video game with no WATA Population Report and a jacked-up history of fake sales and false prices realized.

I'll take the Cobb.

+1 I would also rather have a T206 Cobb that has a jacked-up history of fake sales and false prices than a video game with the same type of history.

swarmee · #25 08-30-2021, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred

I just looked at the Goldin Auctions offering - lots of Video Games and WATA graded material with starting values above what a green T206 Cobb would go for (ok, not in 9.4 condition as graded by WATA), but still, how many people out there would rather have a common video game with a label that says its PRIMO than a nice piece of baseball history like a green (or for that matter, any) T206 Cobb.

Am I missing something here?

If you watch the video, a 9.4 by WATA seems like it would only be a Near Mint 7-8 at their competitor. So basically WATA scale is equivalent to BCCG. Usually investors want to prove they have the best and migrate away from watered down grading scales like BCCG.

chriskim · #26 08-31-2021, 06:47 AM

Such a good timing.... Goldin is having video game auctions in Sept. Previews are opened and I shake my head while scanning thru them.

Fred · #27 08-31-2021, 09:41 AM

Auction bidding should be anonymous, however it would be interesting to see who is actually bidding on those items (if/when they receive any bids).

I just don't get this. Are there more video game collectors than card collectors?

packs · #28 08-31-2021, 11:01 AM

I think that's where the controversy comes in. Are there actually collectors and is there an actual market or is it all smoke and mirrors?

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