Knickerbocker Photo (Update)

JeremyW · #1 09-06-2021, 09:54 AM

I'll take that $10K bet. That is not George Wright. Jeremy

SteveS · #2 09-06-2021, 10:03 AM

First off, I posted the Wright photo only because I thought it would be interesting to Michael after he mentioned his areas of interest. The focus of the thread is on the Knickerbocker photo. But out of curiosity, Jeremy and anybody else, what would constitute "proof" to you? Snowman laid out a ton of matching characteristics in the Wright photo and information to support its provenance (taken by a prominent photographer in Boston), yet all we have from you is a conclusion with nothing to back it up. An opinion is one thing, and I certainly respect it. But backing it up is quite another, which I believe I have done in pointing out unique matches in the Knickerbocker photo. So tell me what more I can do to prove it to your satisfaction?

drcy · #3 09-06-2021, 10:17 AM

It's also not George Wright.

SteveS · #4 09-06-2021, 10:24 AM

And drcy, as I've said numerous times throughout this thread, your conclusions without anything to back them up are taken with a grain of salt.

drcy · #5 09-06-2021, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveS

And drcy, as I've said numerous times throughout this thread, your conclusions without anything to back them up are taken with a grain of salt.

By you and snowman, I have no doubt.

The photo experts are telling you that your identifications are wrong and that you pretty much don't know what you are doing (For just one example, the stereoview is from the 1870s and a man doesn't become 25 years younger in negative 15 years-- Not even in Doctor Who), and you are using snowman as your 'expert support.'

If you and snowman want to continue, that is fine by me.

D. Bergin · #6 09-06-2021, 10:41 AM

Knickerbocker 6 - Definitely not. Sorry.

George Wright - Yes, he looks similar. However, matching something like hairline does not a match make. You can't pick out one or two or even three characteristics and say, those characteristics match, therefore, it's the same guy.

Trust me, I have a giant stack of old unidentified boxing photos, and if half of those photos were of the guy I originally thought, or hoped they were at first glance.........well, that pile would be a lot smaller, and the other pile would be worth a lot more then it is.

ALL the characteristics have to match.

On the Chickering photo: Ear canals are different, Top of ears are higher on the head, then on George Wright, Eyebrow line is different, Chin line is thinner. Wright has a much fuller chin line, then the Chickering fella. Just overall, George Wright has a fuller rounder head then the other fella. The other guy has a longer face.

SteveS · #7 09-06-2021, 11:02 AM

D. Begin, thank you for laying out specifics. Snowman has done the same in close-up views, which I appreciate greatly, and it's up to the viewer to decide.

drcy, I am not using Snowman or anybody else as expert support. Anyone is free to comment here either way. As far as I know, I don't know anyone here personally and I don't know their background other than what they purport to be in their posts. But I think in the time I've been involved with this stereoview, I've come to the conclusion that one's background really doesn't matter. Either you look at it and see resemblances or you don't. I've taken it further and pointed out specific unique matches, but I also know that I will never satisfy everyone. As I stated above, the purported 1847 daguerreotype was given to the HOF by Alexander Cartwright's grandson, yet there's a lengthy thread of disbelievers on this very board. As for the date of the photo, I post a statement about dating white/cream-colored stereoviews with squared corners from a website that I presume you'll take seriously. I also post a couple of stereoviews from museum and library collections that look very similar to mine (including the color, corners, and arched photos -- one is even taken outdoors) that have been dated conclusively to 1854-1857.

D. Bergin · #8 09-06-2021, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveS

D. Begin, thank you for laying out specifics. Snowman has done the same in close-up views, which I appreciate greatly, and it's up to the viewer to decide.

I mean, it could very well be a cousin, uncle, nephew, brother or other family member of George Wright.........but it's not George Wright IMO.

I have a different opinion then Snowman obviously, but do thank him for posting all those other views and close-ups of Wright. It was that post that convinced me it's definitively not him.

That smaller c. 1889 photo that was hard to see the detail on, that you or somebody else posted, had me wondering long and hard for a minute or two.

SteveS · #9 09-06-2021, 12:22 PM

Thank you, Dave. I appreciate your opinion as I know you've taken a close look at it. Wright is difficult, as it's pretty clear that his appearance changed pretty drastically over the years. I think mine fits at the start of his "older adult look."

For the Knickerbocker photo, I want to include here another tool that I used. This one is very helpful, in that it lays one photo over another, so any differences would stand out pretty clearly. Here are the known photos of Doc Adams and Charles Birney placed directly over mine. The slider is right in the middle, so the result is half-known/half-mine. If I move the slider either way it would show more known or more mine, depending on which way. As you can see, they line up exactly. Ear placement and size, eyes, nose, everything. It even shows the shadow that obstructs Doc's hairline in the original. I get similar results with all six men. I think this provides another perspective as to how well the features match up.

drcy · #10 09-06-2021, 12:54 PM

The problem about the ages was pointed out by someone else, but I'll give just one example:

After pointing out that there weren't gray mounts in the 1860s and the stereoview necessarily is from after the 1860s, I'm curious how one explains how the man on the left is at least twenty years younger than the man 10+ years later on the right?

The initial post said that it "seems irrefutable" that it is the six Knickerbockers "Walter Avery, Doc Adams, Duncan Curry, Charles De Bost, Fraley Niebuhr, Charles Birney". However, it more than seems irrefutable, it is irrefutable that it is not.

As far as the "George Wright" photo goes, it should also be pointed out that their heads aren't even the same shape.

Snowman · #11 09-06-2021, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveS

D. Begin, thank you for laying out specifics. Snowman has done the same in close-up views, which I appreciate greatly, and it's up to the viewer to decide.

drcy, I am not using Snowman or anybody else as expert support. Anyone is free to comment here either way. As far as I know, I don't know anyone here personally and I don't know their background other than what they purport to be in their posts. But I think in the time I've been involved with this stereoview, I've come to the conclusion that one's background really doesn't matter. Either you look at it and see resemblances or you don't. I've taken it further and pointed out specific unique matches, but I also know that I will never satisfy everyone. As I stated above, the purported 1847 daguerreotype was given to the HOF by Alexander Cartwright's grandson, yet there's a lengthy thread of disbelievers on this very board. As for the date of the photo, I post a statement about dating white/cream-colored stereoviews with squared corners from a website that I presume you'll take seriously. I also post a couple of stereoviews from museum and library collections that look very similar to mine (including the color, corners, and arched photos -- one is even taken outdoors) that have been dated conclusively to 1854-1857.

But but but, the "expert" in this thread who has handled a million of these said its not possible! That has to be from 1870s or later because of the arches!

Snowman · #12 09-06-2021, 02:47 PM

Just to clarify my stance on both issues, as some people seem to either hand mistaken or intentionally distorted it, I don't believe we have enough evidence to state that the purported Knickerbocker's photo is indeed a photo of them. I would want to see more photos of the players and understand more of the history before making that determination, and unfortunately, we may never get that. For now, I just see some pretty remarkable resemblances and have pointed out the fact that having several of the subjects all with high resemblances to Knickerbockers make it statistically more likely that it is a photo of them. But that does not mean it is and I wouldn't wager money on it unless I were getting style extremely compelling odds.

With the George Wright photo, I would say that I'm 98% confident that this is indeed a photo of George Wright and I would be happy to wager good money on it. The resemblances of numerous unique features is just far too similar and situationally, everything lines up perfectly; timeline wise, location wise, and even the fact that the photographer himself was well known for taking photos of the players. This photographer almost certainly took a photo of Wright at some point given their respective backgrounds and locations. And the resemblances are simply uncanny.

I'm dead serious about accepting bets on the Wright photo. If you want to put your money where your mouth is, send me a PM and we'll work out the terms.

robertsmithnocure · #13 09-06-2021, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

I'm dead serious about accepting bets on the Wright photo. If you want to put your money where your mouth is, send me a PM and we'll work out the terms.

Out of curiosity, what this the proof needed to win this bet?

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