Knickerbocker Photo (Update)

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I'm dead serious about accepting bets on the Wright photo. If you want to put your money where your mouth is, send me a PM and we'll work out the terms.

Out of curiosity, what this the proof needed to win this bet?

[GaryPassamonte]

I haven't read every line of every post in this thread, so forgive me if this comment is redundant. At this point my sole interest in this thread is regarding the possible dates this stereoview was made. I still contend this stereoview may have been made earlier than 1870. There were gray colored mounts used circa 1860, although they are uncommon. I have seen them, although not with the arched top photograph style, which also can date circa 1860. I have also seen both light and dark gray mounts on many later stereoviews, particularly from the 1890s and beyond. These later gray mount stereoviews are of the curved variety which post date the stereoview in question here since it does not appear to be a curved mount. I do respect the opinions of others on this thread, but I think this point needs to be made. I'm not defending any other arguments being made in this thread regarding the identity of the six men in the image. I'll leave that to everyone else.

[SteveS]

Gary, thank you! I wouldn't expect anyone to read every post in this thread, but I pointed out a few posts above that this mount is definitely an off-white/cream color. I don't know if it is showing up gray on others' screens, but there's no doubt about the color in person. And from everything I've read (some of which I've posted here), the earliest albumen stereoviews are on white or cream-colored mounts with squared corners, just as mine is.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by SteveS

Gary, thank you! I wouldn't expect anyone to read every post in this thread, but I pointed out a few posts above that this mount is definitely an off-white/cream color. I don't know if it is showing up gray on others' screens, but there's no doubt about the color in person. And from everything I've read (some of which I've posted here), the earliest albumen stereoviews are on white or cream-colored mounts with squared corners, just as mine is.

The above and back image do not show a white or cream-colored mount.

Take as many photos as needed, and post images here showing it that it is white or cream-colored. If it is white or cream-colored, certainly you can post images showing so.

I'm not sure what is SteveS's contention this far along into the thread. However, at this point, even the #2 biggest defender of the photo, snowman, does not claim that it's the Knickerbockers and says "There's a lot of uncertainty surrounding it."

At this point, excluding the OP, I don't know that anyone is saying it is those six Knickerbockers. I'm not even sure that the OP is still claiming it is those six Knickerbockers.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by drcy

The above and back image do not show a white or cream-colored mount.

Take as many photos as needed, and post images here showing it that it is white or cream-colored. If it is white or cream-colored, certainly you can post images showing so.

He can't control your monitor though. He could post 1,000 different images of it but if your monitor doesn't accurately convey colors (and most do not, FYI) then you'll never see it for what it is without holding it in person or getting a new monitor.

I'm using a Macbook Pro with a well-calibrated retina display to view the images. Colors on my screen are about as accurate as possible on a computer. However, it's only as accurate as the photo itself (I don't know how accurate those are vs holding it in hand). The mount looks like a beige or light tan color on my screen, definitely not gray. What the implications are of a beige mount though, I have no idea. But that's how the color comes across on mine.

[Snowman]

Adding proof to combat the inevitable nonsensical replies to follow... Here's a screenshot of the RGB color values and color code name for the screenshot of how the color of this image is conveyed on my screen. My color-picking eye-dropper app defines the color as shown attached below. It is clearly some version of a light brown, here described by the app as "rosybrown". See attached.

[Shoeless Moe]

Is there a known Knickerbocker photo also showing the 3 in the back row standing so you can compare their heights? Dude in the back middle is considerably shorter then the 2 next to him.

[bdk1976]

No way that guy is George Wright. Look at the closeup and you can easily see the bridge of their nose is completely different, with Wright's being much more flat/square (as seen in all of the other known pictures as well).

Also the grey haired version of Wright has MORE hair on the top of his head than the supposed pic of him when he was younger. And it doesn't appear as though he is wearing a toupee either.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bdk1976

No way that guy is George Wright. Look at the closeup and you can easily see the bridge of their nose is completely different, with Wright's being much more flat/square (as seen in all of the other known pictures as well).

Also the grey haired version of Wright has MORE hair on the top of his head than the supposed pic of him when he was younger. And it doesn't appear as though he is wearing a toupee either.

So your theory is that the known photos of Wright in his older years show that he magically regrew some hair on top despite the other younger known photos of him clearly showing him as being completely bald up top in his middle-ages. Got it. Thanks for your input.

Now what was it you were saying about those identical noses being "completely different"?

You do realize that the light sources of the two close-up nose photos are in different locations, right?

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Snowman

He can't control your monitor though. He could post 1,000 different images of it but if your monitor doesn't accurately convey colors (and most do not, FYI) then you'll never see it for what it is without holding it in person or getting a new monitor.

I'm using a Macbook Pro with a well-calibrated retina display to view the images. Colors on my screen are about as accurate as possible on a computer. However, it's only as accurate as the photo itself (I don't know how accurate those are vs holding it in hand). The mount looks like a beige or light tan color on my screen, definitely not gray. What the implications are of a beige mount though, I have no idea. But that's how the color comes across on mine.

In other words, even you, his biggest defender, are already preemptively saying he won't be able to post photos in this forum demonstrating that the mount is white or cream-colored. And, as some strange form of defense, post your own RGB color analysis that shows that the mount in the image isn't white or cream-colored.

Whatever. I'm done with this thread.

[SteveS]

Snowman, thank you for your input on the color. Please let me know if you get any takers and how you will decide a winner.

bdk1976, take a look at the 1889 photo of Wright that I posted, and also the one of his bending over golfing that Snowman posted. He's bald on top.

Shoeless Moe, the 1862 photo shows some of them standing, but as I pointed out earlier it is a composite cut-and-paste, and I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that it can't be relied on to determine sizes. In the 1859 photo, which I've also posted, De Bost and Adams are standing next to each other and line up very well with the heights in my picture.

drcy, I find your MO interesting of editing your comments after people have already responded to them. It's happened pretty much every time. Very telling. I don't feel the need to post any more pictures of the stereoview. You already have an unretouched scan of both sides, and however it renders on your screen is not up to me. But what I will do is post a comparison of mine with a stereoview of a chess game that is known with 100% certainty to have been taken in 1858. It was a very famous match in its day, and the date cannot be disputed. However you see the color, you can't miss that it's very close to mine, it is flat with square corners like mine, and it has arched photos like mine. And in case you missed it from every single post that I've made, yes I absolutely stand by my contention that this photograph depicts Knickerbockers. So please keep your promise and take your ball and go home and be done with this "dumb thread," because every single thing you've said has proven to be grossly incorrect.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by drcy

In other words, even you, his biggest defender, are already preemptively saying he won't be able to post photos in this forum demonstrating that the mount is white or cream-colored. And, as some strange form of defense, post your own RGB color analysis that shows that the mount in the image isn't white or cream-colored.

Whatever. I'm done with this thread.

Wow, you're brilliant. This is a big loss to this thread. I'm devastated. Toodle-oo.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

Out of curiosity, what this the proof needed to win this bet?

If I get any takers, we'll have to figure that out. I'm open to suggestions though. I'd prefer to handle those conversations via PM as I don't want to derail this thread into being about side bets.