Knickerbocker Photo (Update)

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Prewarsports, any comment on the above agreement from from 4 actual experts all dating this to the 1850s? When I'm this wrong, I follow it up with an apology and accept it as a learning opportunity and adjust my understanding accordingly going forward.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, and I probably should just keep my mouth shut, but I have to ask: what experts?

The American Museum of Photography is an online only museum that appears to have not been redesigned since it was hosted on Geocities, AmericanPhotographs.com is a flickr site that you can't actually view, and the Stereoscopy Blog is run by Rebecca. They may very well be experts, but we don't actually know who they are or what their CV looks like. Furthermore, without actually seeing the question posed and the answered received, we have no idea what they said other than what Steve has told us they said.

I spent way too much of my misspent youth mucking about in the evolution-creation wars. This whole discussion triggers flashbacks for me. Motivated reasoning, confirmation bias, anonymous expert opinions, sciency sounding explanations. It's all here. Including question begging when you are asking someone to respond to expert opinions when it hasn't been established the people are actually experts.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

I don't have a dog in this hunt, and I probably should just keep my mouth shut, but I have to ask: what experts?

The American Museum of Photography is an online only museum that appears to have not been redesigned since it was hosted on Geocities, AmericanPhotographs.com is a flickr site that you can't actually view, and the Stereoscopy Blog is run by Rebecca. They may very well be experts, but we don't actually know who they are or what their CV looks like. Furthermore, without actually seeing the question posed and the answered received, we have no idea what they said other than what Steve has told us they said.

I spent way too much of my misspent youth mucking about in the evolution-creation wars. This whole discussion triggers flashbacks for me. Motivated reasoning, confirmation bias, anonymous expert opinions, sciency sounding explanations. It's all here. Including question begging when you are asking someone to respond to expert opinions when it hasn't been established the people are actually experts.

Fair enough. I made an assumption, and could be wrong. Although I do believe the museum curator that he was referred to probably knows what they're talking about.

It's funny to me that you mentioned the creation vs evolution debates. I was thinking the exact same thing earlier when reading through this thread.

[SteveS]

GaryPassamonte, thank you for posting that. It's a very cool pic!

carlsonjok, I googled "stereoview expert" and variations of that. Clearly I was able to access the websites to get the contact information and send messages which they received and responded. I posted who they are so that anyone can find out for themselves their level of knowledge and expertise when it comes to stereoviews. Without insulting anybody here, I trust their experience in the field more than some of the people here whose expertise is based on the fact that they run auctions. I sent out a bunch of e-mails, and I'll see how any other responses come back. I certainly would post contrarian opinions, but so far, all have been consistent. I uploaded the front and back of the stereoview here so anybody seeing it can render an opinion. God/Science bless you (I don't know on which side of the argument you were.

smokelessjoe, here are the results I promised. I ran the people in the back against the people in front of them. The results were 42%, 52%, and 59%, with all showing "from different persons."

[SteveS]

Snowman, yes, I figured anyone reading through this thread can see the name of the museum I posted earlier. There aren't a plethora of people in this world who specialize in stereoview expertise, but I found the ones I could. If anyone here who doubts them would like to recommend someone I haven't already contacted and hasn't already seen it on this board, please provide me the contact information and I will be more than happy to send the images to them for an opinion.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by SteveS

GaryPassamonte, thank you for posting that. It's a very cool pic!

carlsonjok, I googled "stereoview expert" and variations of that. Clearly I was able to access the websites to get the contact information and send messages which they received and responded. I posted who they are so that anyone can find out for themselves their level of knowledge and expertise when it comes to stereoviews. Without insulting anybody here, I trust their experience in the field more than some of the people here whose expertise is based on the fact that they run auctions. I sent out a bunch of e-mails, and I'll see how any other responses come back. I certainly would post contrarian opinions, but so far, all have been consistent. I uploaded the front and back of the stereoview here so anybody seeing it can render an opinion. God/Science bless you (I don't know on which side of the argument you were.

smokelessjoe, here are the results I promised. I ran the people in the back against the people in front of them. The results were 42%, 52%, and 59%, with all showing "from different persons."

Awesome, now since they are obviously different people how do those percentages compare to 2 random people? Like if you ran a pic of you and me.

[OldOriole]

Originally Posted by SteveS

carlsonjok, I googled "stereoview expert" and variations of that. Clearly I was able to access the websites to get the contact information and send messages which they received and responded. I posted who they are so that anyone can find out for themselves their level of knowledge and expertise when it comes to stereoviews. Without insulting anybody here, I trust their experience in the field more than some of the people here whose expertise is based on the fact that they run auctions. I sent out a bunch of e-mails, and I'll see how any other responses come back. I certainly would post contrarian opinions, but so far, all have been consistent. I uploaded the front and back of the stereoview here so anybody seeing it can render an opinion."

Steve, I probably would have tried googling experts too, much the same way you did. I'm just not sure - and this may be part of Jeff's point - that I would say "All are worldwide-recognized photo experts, specifically stereoviews" (as you did in post 245). Not from one google search, anyway.

[SteveS]

bnorth, here are the leading MVP candidates. Fernando Tatis Jr. with Vladimir Guerrero Jr. gets 55%. Tatis with Shohei Ohtani gets 35%. Both "from different persons."

OldOriole, in my Google search I did see them cited in websites outside the US. And if ESPN can call themselves "the worldwide leader...."

slightlyrounded, I know that at least three of them match to the same level, as I did it originally with the natural orientation. As I said before, I thought I had read that stereoviews are reversed. But as I related above, the expert explained it much clearer that the images are transposed, not reversed. But I just did Avery in his original orientation and he's 88% and "from the same person" (posted below).

[slightlyrounded]

I can't wait to be on my deathbed and think about the month I wasted debating the identities of all present at 'the 3rd Annual Meeting of the Boise Osteopathic Association' or somesuch, lol.

[drcy]

The website is interesting and I'll check it out (Good to know it is able to say that Willie Mays and Tommy Lasorda are not the same person )

A question no one has asked: How does anyone know that the photo is even from the United States?

With the cabinet card you have the luxury of knowing where and by whom it was made.

[SteveS]

You guys were posting fast and furious while I was writing my last post. To smokelessjoe, whatever they told me I related here. No specifics about the clothing or the mount (although I did discuss several times in here what I found in my research).

drcy, there are no markings to say where it's from. That's part of the mystery.

To everyone with the facial matches, I was VERY clear many times that I don't put much faith in them. I mentioned it as an aside, and posted results only when someone asked. I don't know how it affects things using whatever resolution they upload into here, and using the comparison photos rather than the originals. I posted the one I did quickly with Avery. But let me stress again what I've said many times and what you all seem to agree. The facial-match programs are fun, but don't prove anything either way.

I sat here while several of the "experts" on this board came very close to calling me an idiot and insisted in the most snooty way possible that there is no way in this universe that the stereoview can be from the 1870s. You may not agree with the experts I asked (probably because they disagree with you), but I found them in a completely neutral way and trust that they are indeed experts about stereoviews specifically. And so far, they have been unanimous in their opinion that my stereoview is from the 1850s. It's perfectly understandable that reasonable people can disagree as to the resemblance of faces. But I have put them side by side and pointed to specific features that are unique and can be seen in both examples (no matter which way they're facing). So you tell me how Doc Adams' open mouth and droopy eyes aren't compelling. Or Duncan Curry's severely baggy eyes and open mouth. Etc. Or tell me specific things that don't match. Because trying to say that putting a hand on a shoulder makes someone a father, I need to go on Maury Povich's show for a battery of paternity tests.

[slightlyrounded]

Originally Posted by SteveS

GaryPassamonte, thank you for posting that. It's a very cool pic!

carlsonjok, I googled "stereoview expert" and variations of that. Clearly I was able to access the websites to get the contact information and send messages which they received and responded. I posted who they are so that anyone can find out for themselves their level of knowledge and expertise when it comes to stereoviews. Without insulting anybody here, I trust their experience in the field more than some of the people here whose expertise is based on the fact that they run auctions. I sent out a bunch of e-mails, and I'll see how any other responses come back. I certainly would post contrarian opinions, but so far, all have been consistent. I uploaded the front and back of the stereoview here so anybody seeing it can render an opinion. God/Science bless you (I don't know on which side of the argument you were.

smokelessjoe, here are the results I promised. I ran the people in the back against the people in front of them. The results were 42%, 52%, and 59%, with all showing "from different persons."

To be fair, now that we're using unmanipulated (ie no longer reverse images) comparisons, the original "matches" you were claiming (see post #56) have now fallen apart as well.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by slightlyrounded

To be fair, now that we're using unmanipulated (ie no longer reverse images) comparisons, the original "matches" you were claiming (see post #56) have now fallen apart as well.

Do you have the actual #s from when the pictures are not reversed? It would be interesting to see the change.

[slightlyrounded]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Do you have the actual #s from when the pictures are not reversed? It would be interesting to see the change.

Here are a few...I wouldn't put ANY stock in these results either way personally.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by slightlyrounded

Here are a few...I wouldn't put ANY stock in these results either way personally.

I wouldn't put much stock into them because the old pics are so blurry and small there is no way for it to be accurate IMO. Still cool to see and play around with. I found and bookmarked the site.

[smokelessjoe]

Steve,

Lets avoid summarizing and try to be as detailed as possible. This way we can all learn from the experts and have a better understanding of the photo in question.

1. What specifically about the clothing led all three experts to the mid 1850s date?

2. What specifically about the mounting design led all three experts to the mid 1850s date?

3. Can the experts explain how an overlap in the photo is indicative of dates in mid 1850s

Also, I was not asking that you compare the guys who are front and back of each other but rather the ones you feel most resemble each other - as you did with the Knicker photo.

For example, can you run a report on these two guys.

Thanks for running those reports