Small Traditions LLC/SCANDAL UPDATE

Peter_Spaeth · #1 09-21-2021, 07:16 PM

It's interesting that when Snow has a point to make, it's OK to use a very simple correlation -- more eyes equals higher prices. But when someone else has a point, such as that examination of a reasonable sampling of high dollar auctions could be indicative of hanky panky, HIS anaylsis is way too simplistic to prove anything and is meaningless buffoonery absent a full deep data dive. Hmmmm.

Let me guess, Snow will say apples to oranges.

Or maybe he'll say that since he alone understands data, he alone can determine how much is needed for any given question.

BobC · #2 09-21-2021, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's interesting that when Snow has a point to make, it's OK to use a very simple correlation -- more eyes equals higher prices. But when someone else has a point, such as that examination of a reasonable sampling of high dollar auctions could be indicative of hanky panky, HIS anaylsis is way too simplistic to prove anything and is meaningless buffoonery absent a full deep data dive. Hmmmm.

Let me guess, Snow will say apples to oranges.

Or maybe he'll say that since he alone understands data, he alone can determine how much is needed for any given question.

Same thing I'm seeing in many of his posts. He does know how to use prettier words, and puts them together very well. You really have to read, pay attention, and comprehend to get the gist of what he's saying, and figure out if it is meaningful or just empty words. He does make many good points, and brings up logical and thought provoking counter ideas, but forgets that at the end of the day a lot of it is nothing more than unsupported opinion. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is. And in commenting here on a pre-war forum, that is relevant and has to be taken into consideration. You always have to consider the audience you are talking to if you are looking to prove your point, especially in a back and forth type situation he often gets into.

Now based on how he typically responds, I'd expect him to answer back that he doesn't really care if others believe him and his points or not. Or that he's not really trying to change anyone's mind, but will respond in some manner usually that makes people feel he still questions why they don't just automatically acquiesce and accept his point of view on different topics like this one because of his logic and thinking. Which is why I asked the question of him if he knowingly continues on with this contrarian banter because he enjoys irking people, or if truly doesn't have a clue how he comes across.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 09-21-2021, 10:39 PM

He does have a bit of a theory of mind issue but that's not uncommon or a fault, just an observation.

Snowman · #4 09-21-2021, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He does have a bit of a theory of mind issue but that's not uncommon or a fault, just an observation.

Yes, I do.

Snowman · #5 09-21-2021, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Same thing I'm seeing in many of his posts. He does know how to use prettier words, and puts them together very well. You really have to read, pay attention, and comprehend to get the gist of what he's saying, and figure out if it is meaningful or just empty words. He does make many good points, and brings up logical and thought provoking counter ideas, but forgets that at the end of the day a lot of it is nothing more than unsupported opinion. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is. And in commenting here on a pre-war forum, that is relevant and has to be taken into consideration. You always have to consider the audience you are talking to if you are looking to prove your point, especially in a back and forth type situation he often gets into.

Now based on how he typically responds, I'd expect him to answer back that he doesn't really care if others believe him and his points or not. Or that he's not really trying to change anyone's mind, but will respond in some manner usually that makes people feel he still questions why they don't just automatically acquiesce and accept his point of view on different topics like this one because of his logic and thinking. Which is why I asked the question of him if he knowingly continues on with this contrarian banter because he enjoys irking people, or if truly doesn't have a clue how he comes across.

I think it's more than I'm struggling with whether or not people are being disingenuous and just trying to get under my skin, or if they honestly believe what they're saying sometimes. My above claim that more eyes on a listing leads to higher prices is a prime example. I don't know if people are just messing with me when they challenge that claim or if they honestly believe that it's not true.

I care more about whether or not I'm making my points clearly than I do about whether or not they are understood clearly. But I do at least attempt to speak with intention and I try not to mince words so that there is no confusion about what I'm trying to say. I do get frustrated, however, when someone takes something I've said and completely twists it around and then puts their own words back into my mouth which I then have to spit back out because they want to manipulate my viewpoint.

I will try to be more clear about why I believe something is true in the future rather than just claiming it's true and expecting everyone to believe me.

Leon · #6 09-22-2021, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think it's more than I'm struggling with whether or not people are being disingenuous and just trying to get under my skin, or if they honestly believe what they're saying sometimes. My above claim that more eyes on a listing leads to higher prices is a prime example. I don't know if people are just messing with me when they challenge that claim or if they honestly believe that it's not true.

I care more about whether or not I'm making my points clearly than I do about whether or not they are understood clearly. But I do at least attempt to speak with intention and I try not to mince words so that there is no confusion about what I'm trying to say. I do get frustrated, however, when someone takes something I've said and completely twists it around and then puts their own words back into my mouth which I then have to spit back out because they want to manipulate my viewpoint.

I will try to be more clear about why I believe something is true in the future rather than just claiming it's true and expecting everyone to believe me.

No one has accused you of mincing words.
.

packs · #7 09-22-2021, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think it's more than I'm struggling with whether or not people are being disingenuous and just trying to get under my skin, or if they honestly believe what they're saying sometimes. My above claim that more eyes on a listing leads to higher prices is a prime example. I don't know if people are just messing with me when they challenge that claim or if they honestly believe that it's not true.

I care more about whether or not I'm making my points clearly than I do about whether or not they are understood clearly. But I do at least attempt to speak with intention and I try not to mince words so that there is no confusion about what I'm trying to say. I do get frustrated, however, when someone takes something I've said and completely twists it around and then puts their own words back into my mouth which I then have to spit back out because they want to manipulate my viewpoint.

I will try to be more clear about why I believe something is true in the future rather than just claiming it's true and expecting everyone to believe me.

I don't think there's general disagreement that more eyes equal more bids. The disagreement comes in that being a real explanation for what's going on. It has been pointed out that ever since a seller appeared on the scene, as far back as 2013, the same conversation has been had the entire time that seller has been active. Before the followers and before the vault the same issue existed and the same questions were asked.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 09-22-2021, 10:20 AM

Incidentally an interesting point was made on another forum where we were discussing what ebay meant by shill bidding by "persons associated with PWCC." Some think it only means consignors were running up their own cards, not that employees or house accounts of PWCC were involved. But as someone asked, how would ebay know who his consignors were?

carlsonjok · #9 09-22-2021, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Incidentally an interesting point was made on another forum where we were discussing what ebay meant by shill bidding by "persons associated with PWCC." Some think it only means consignors were running up their own cards, not that employees or house accounts of PWCC were involved. But as someone asked, how would ebay know who his consignors were?

There are third party providers that provide store management capabilities that complement eBay's service. Without actually checking, it does seem reasonable that those services would include the capability to associate specific listings with the consignor. And, if eBay had been subpoenaed, you can pretty much bet whomever was PWCC's store provider was also.

Peter_Spaeth · #10 09-22-2021, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

There are third party providers that provide store management capabilities that complement eBay's service. Without actually checking, it does seem reasonable that those services would include the capability to associate specific listings with the consignor. And, if eBay had been subpoenaed, you can pretty much bet whomever was PWCC's store provider was also.

That still doesn't explain I don't think how EBAY would know the information so as to accuse PWCC of allowing consignors to bid on their own items.

SteveS · #11 09-22-2021, 11:08 AM

Peter, that phrasing by eBay does leave it open to interpretation. But there's another interesting phrase they used: "If we determine that a buyer or seller is not acting in good faith, eBay takes this seriously and takes action." To me, that would seem to indicate that they believe PWCC is complicit in the shill bidding, as the action they took was to ban them. I would also think that if they felt the consignors were behind the shilling, they would at least attempt to work with a seller that large to resolve the issue. It will be interesting to find out whether eBay ever contacted PWCC to say something like, "Hey, we're noticing some suspicious activity in your auctions involving shill bidding. Let's try to figure this out and stop it." But based on PWCC's response to the ban, it seems as though they were completely surprised by it, which would seem to indicate that eBay feels that PWCC are the ones acting in bad faith.

Peter_Spaeth · #12 09-22-2021, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveS

Peter, that phrasing by eBay does leave it open to interpretation. But there's another interesting phrase they used: "If we determine that a buyer or seller is not acting in good faith, eBay takes this seriously and takes action." To me, that would seem to indicate that they believe PWCC is complicit in the shill bidding, as the action they took was to ban them. I would also think that if they felt the consignors were behind the shilling, they would at least attempt to work with a seller that large to resolve the issue. It will be interesting to find out whether eBay ever contacted PWCC to say something like, "Hey, we're noticing some suspicious activity in your auctions involving shill bidding. Let's try to figure this out and stop it." But based on PWCC's response to the ban, it seems as though they were completely surprised by it, which would seem to indicate that eBay feels that PWCC are the ones acting in bad faith.

Hopefully somehow we'll find out what it all means. As to your last point, I wouldn't take anything PWCC says at face value. Anything. This is a man who claimed on this forum I was the first one ever to raise a question about his scans (many years ago when they were thermonuclear), when just a few months before he himself had responded at length to such a claim on CU. This is a man who told me flat out in 2016 or 2017 that Gary M. had retired. I could go on and on and on. His public statements are all self-serving spin IMO.

conor912 · #13 09-22-2021, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think it's more than I'm struggling with whether or not people are being disingenuous and just trying to get under my skin, or if they honestly believe what they're saying sometimes. My above claim that more eyes on a listing leads to higher prices is a prime example. I don't know if people are just messing with me when they challenge that claim or if they honestly believe that it's not true.

I care more about whether or not I'm making my points clearly than I do about whether or not they are understood clearly. But I do at least attempt to speak with intention and I try not to mince words so that there is no confusion about what I'm trying to say. I do get frustrated, however, when someone takes something I've said and completely twists it around and then puts their own words back into my mouth which I then have to spit back out because they want to manipulate my viewpoint.

I will try to be more clear about why I believe something is true in the future rather than just claiming it's true and expecting everyone to believe me.

Maybe try posting some cards and joining the discussion rather than showing up at a party already in progress and pissing in the punch bowl. Just an idea.

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