New York - City of Losers

[Seven]

I'm very confused by the spirit of the thread, it's as if you have some sort of personal vendetta against the entire city of New York, its people and it's sports fans. I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of us are honest, hardworking people that just want to see our teams do well. We also happen to live in NY, which along with LA are probably the most widely covered cities from a media standpoint, and I fully agree the terrible NY sports teams should not receive the amount of coverage they get, however Gross generalizations of the people that live here and the fanbases of our sports teams is pretty lousy.

I'm not telling you what to do with your time, but I come to this place for an escape from reality, not to read people hurling insults about the entirety of our teams fanbases or its people. I'll excuse myself from this thread after this post, but it's been weighing on me for a bit of time, and I wanted to get it out there.

[Shoeless Moe]

...

[Hxcmilkshake]

Go get some fresh air.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

[packs]

I just find it funny that people are upset at the Yankees "buying" championships, which is absurd once you start talking about the teams who won. The Core Four were entirely home grown players, and that doesn't include Bernie Williams, another home grown player, or bit players like Ramiro Mendoza, who were also home grown players.

So, what was bought when three of your best hitters were signed out of high school and your two best pitchers were signed as an international free agent and a 22nd round draft pick?

Even if you look at 2009, 5 out of the 9 starting players had only played in a Yankee uniform. In the rotation, 2 out of 5 starters were drafted by the Yankees and the bullpen was anchored by Mariano Rivera, Phil Hughes, David Robertson, and Phil Coke, all guys who had never worn another uniform.

[packs]

I'm not really understanding what's to be admired about a team like the Rays either. How can you celebrate losing? Or want to emulate a team who lost enough to finally be good? How is that a recipe anyone would want to follow? You think there are teams out there considering being terrible for 20 years on purpose to finally be good and still not win a World Series?

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm not really understanding what's to be admired about a team like the Rays either. How can you celebrate losing? Or want to emulate a team who lost enough to finally be good? How is that a recipe anyone would want to follow? You think there are teams out there considering being terrible for 20 years on purpose to finally be good and still not win a World Series?

And if the Rays could spend money they would. They aren't being noble, they literally can't afford any body.

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[packs]

Hard to believe a billionaire owner can't afford something. Whether or not they care about the team is different from being able to afford one. If you have a team at all, you can afford to make it good if you wanted to.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Ya got one NY fan in another thread thinking this round of the MLB playoffs is 7 games, and you got this NY fan not thinking the Islanders have been around for the last 20 years.

I love that the NY fans are proving my point.

Bad teams, bad fans.

You can't write this.

DOn't fed the troll, I get it, but if wasn't for the priceless 3 hours 40 times a year with my dad for those 20 years, I would say that paying costumers were the bad fans. Those that stayed home did not waste their money on a team where ownership showed very little interest in improving the on ice product. I went. I am happy about the time with dad. Watching Mariusz Czerkawski? Not so much...

[steve B]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm not talking about one game. I'm talking about the guy losing 2 out of 3 starts to end the year, one of which the Yankees were counting on him to win, and then losing again in the Wild Card game and giving up 7 home runs over his last 19 innings.

And if that same stretch happened in May it would be no big deal.

It only seems worse because by October there isn't enough time left to make up for an earlier bad stretch.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

And if that same stretch happened in May it would be no big deal.

It only seems worse because by October there isn't enough time left to make up for an earlier bad stretch.

Yep. All wins and losses count the same, just like all runs and runs surrendered in a game count the same, but some don't seem persuaded by that.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yep. All wins and losses count the same, just like all runs and runs surrendered in a game count the same, but some don't seem persuaded by that.

How can you be when you watch someone lose the last game there is to play? I don't see how theory or conceptual ideals play into losing the game you needed to win.

[packs]

Originally Posted by steve B

And if that same stretch happened in May it would be no big deal.

It only seems worse because by October there isn't enough time left to make up for an earlier bad stretch.

Obviously. You play the entire season to win in October, so if you don't win in October, what does it matter? I really don't see how anyone in the world would take solace in something like Gerrit Cole having a great May and then throwing 2 innings in a do or die game.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by packs

I just find it funny that people are upset at the Yankees "buying" championships, which is absurd once you start talking about the teams who won. The Core Four were entirely home grown players, and that doesn't include Bernie Williams, another home grown player, or bit players like Ramiro Mendoza, who were also home grown players.

So, what was bought when three of your best hitters were signed out of high school and your two best pitchers were signed as an international free agent and a 22nd round draft pick?

Even if you look at 2009, 5 out of the 9 starting players had only played in a Yankee uniform. In the rotation, 2 out of 5 starters were drafted by the Yankees and the bullpen was anchored by Mariano Rivera, Phil Hughes, David Robertson, and Phil Coke, all guys who had never worn another uniform.

Add in a long stretch of what were really good decisions on who to sign, who to trade and when etc.
Whoever was doing their player selection back then did an amazing job.

And that's from a Red Sox fan who was a bit jealous his favorite team couldn't get that right most of the time.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by packs

I just find it funny that people are upset at the Yankees "buying" championships, which is absurd once you start talking about the teams who won. The Core Four were entirely home grown players, and that doesn't include Bernie Williams, another home grown player, or bit players like Ramiro Mendoza, who were also home grown players.

So, what was bought when three of your best hitters were signed out of high school and your two best pitchers were signed as an international free agent and a 22nd round draft pick?

Even if you look at 2009, 5 out of the 9 starting players had only played in a Yankee uniform. In the rotation, 2 out of 5 starters were drafted by the Yankees and the bullpen was anchored by Mariano Rivera, Phil Hughes, David Robertson, and Phil Coke, all guys who had never worn another uniform.

Originally Posted by packs

I'm not really understanding what's to be admired about a team like the Rays either. How can you celebrate losing? Or want to emulate a team who lost enough to finally be good? How is that a recipe anyone would want to follow? You think there are teams out there considering being terrible for 20 years on purpose to finally be good and still not win a World Series?

Good Lord,

If the Yankees and the Dodgers did not perennially have the two highest team salaries, perhaps I would think twice about claiming that they buy championships. (I also like to see the big spenders lose, I'm not a Laker fan either)

As far as the Rays are concerned, the first time they reached the big show (aka WS) I think their team salary was between 1/4 and 1/3 of the league's highest. Someone will provide the specifics if you doubt that. They also play in a tin foil dome with a slanted roof. Have you been there, I have. Winning a championship or even coming in second is much more of an accomplishment than going out and buying Stanton and Cole and then bitch about not winning a championship. Go Rays, and I would add the Brewers for many of the same reasons. There is a big difference between wanting to emulate a small market team and admiring them.

Another post suggested that we were dissing New York as a city. I would object to that assessment, because I'm sure there are several million New Yorkers who don't give a damn about sports, and more than a few are probably fine people, whether the Yankees win or lose.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

How can you be when you watch someone lose the last game there is to play? I don't see how theory or conceptual ideals play into losing the game you needed to win.

You needed the first game just as much, as it turned out. You are IMO conflating drama and importance.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Obviously. You play the entire season to win in October, so if you don't win in October, what does it matter? I really don't see how anyone in the world would take solace in something like Gerrit Cole having a great May and then throwing 2 innings in a do or die game.

If you don't win in May you aren't competitive in October. Take one of his May wins, turn it into a loss, and the Yankees don't even make the wild card. This is the same argument we've had about all runs in a game being equal no matter which inning.

[packs]

That's not how life is lived though. You don't care about yesterday when you need to win today. That's Monday morning talk.

[packs]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Good Lord,

If the Yankees and the Dodgers did not perennially have the two highest team salaries, perhaps I would think twice about claiming that they buy championships. (I also like to see the big spenders lose, I'm not a Laker fan either)

As far as the Rays are concerned, the first time they reached the big show (aka WS) I think their team salary was between 1/4 and 1/3 of the league's highest. Someone will provide the specifics if you doubt that. They also play in a tin foil dome with a slanted roof. Have you been there, I have. Winning a championship or even coming in second is much more of an accomplishment than going out and buying Stanton and Cole and then bitch about not winning a championship. Go Rays, and I would add the Brewers for many of the same reasons. There is a big difference between wanting to emulate a small market team and admiring them.

Another post suggested that we were dissing New York as a city. I would object to that assessment, because I'm sure there are several million New Yorkers who don't give a dam about sports, and more than a few are probably fine people, whether the Yankees win or lose.

There is no accomplishment if you don't win. Nobody in the world says at least we got to play. Also, your perception of salaries doesn't take into account what it costs to keep a player you drafted on your team. If that's what you mean by "buying" championships, I guess you live in a different world where money isn't as important to you. The Yankees pay their players. That's why so many of them retire as a Yankee. That is not what I assume most people mean when they say "buying" championships. I associated that with the mentality of never drafting well and relying on free agents, which isn't the Yankees MO at all.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Good Lord,

If the Yankees and the Dodgers did not perennially have the two highest team salaries, perhaps I would think twice about claiming that they buy championships. (I also like to see the big spenders lose, I'm not a Laker fan either)

As far as the Rays are concerned, the first time they reached the big show (aka WS) I think their team salary was between 1/4 and 1/3 of the league's highest. Someone will provide the specifics if you doubt that. They also play in a tin foil dome with a slanted roof. Have you been there, I have. Winning a championship or even coming in second is much more of an accomplishment than going out and buying Stanton and Cole and then bitch about not winning a championship. Go Rays, and I would add the Brewers for many of the same reasons. There is a big difference between wanting to emulate a small market team and admiring them.

Another post suggested that we were dissing New York as a city. I would object to that assessment, because I'm sure there are several million New Yorkers who don't give a damn about sports, and more than a few are probably fine people, whether the Yankees win or lose.

Agree, would love to see the WHITE Sox, Ray or Brewers win it all. Much more respect for organizations that don't buy titles, or attempt to buy titles.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Agree, would love to see the WHITE Sox, Ray or Brewers win it all. Much more respect for organizations that don't buy titles, or attempt to buy titles.

May I suggest the Baltimore Orioles.

[egri]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

May I suggest the Baltimore Orioles.

I'd like to see the Orioles be competitive again, but only after Peter Angelos sells the team. I have nothing against the Orioles, but can't stand Angelos.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by packs

I just find it funny that people are upset at the Yankees "buying" championships, which is absurd once you start talking about the teams who won. The Core Four were entirely home grown players, and that doesn't include Bernie Williams, another home grown player, or bit players like Ramiro Mendoza, who were also home grown players.

So, what was bought when three of your best hitters were signed out of high school and your two best pitchers were signed as an international free agent and a 22nd round draft pick?

Even if you look at 2009, 5 out of the 9 starting players had only played in a Yankee uniform. In the rotation, 2 out of 5 starters were drafted by the Yankees and the bullpen was anchored by Mariano Rivera, Phil Hughes, David Robertson, and Phil Coke, all guys who had never worn another uniform.

Yah they didn't buy a championship in 2009, you're a funny guy.

http://www.espn.com/espn/wire/_/section/mlb/id/4054743

[packs]

Again, I think you're making the mistake of assuming that if you pay your players to remain on your team, you've somehow "bought" a championship. I already went ahead and broke down the starting line up and pitching staff for you.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by packs

Again, I think you're making the mistake of assuming that if you pay your players to remain on your team, you've somehow "bought" a championship. I already went ahead and broke down the starting line up and pitching staff for you.

Can you break down their payroll and free agent acquisitions?

[Shoeless Moe]

....and I love Bob Costas but for f--k sake learn how to pronounce the players names on games you broadcast.

It's not EL-LOY.....it's E-Loy!!!!!

[egri]

Originally Posted by packs

I just find it funny that people are upset at the Yankees "buying" championships, which is absurd once you start talking about the teams who won. The Core Four were entirely home grown players, and that doesn't include Bernie Williams, another home grown player, or bit players like Ramiro Mendoza, who were also home grown players.

So, what was bought when three of your best hitters were signed out of high school and your two best pitchers were signed as an international free agent and a 22nd round draft pick?

Even if you look at 2009, 5 out of the 9 starting players had only played in a Yankee uniform. In the rotation, 2 out of 5 starters were drafted by the Yankees and the bullpen was anchored by Mariano Rivera, Phil Hughes, David Robertson, and Phil Coke, all guys who had never worn another uniform.

Mark Teixeira, CC Sabathia and AJ Burnett were key parts of that team, and they were all signed as free agents the previous offseason in a massive spending binge. They took a team that had missed the playoffs the year before and won a World Series. Even in the 1990s/early 2000s teams, David Cone, Roger Clemens, Paul O'Neil and David Wells (just off the top of my head) came to New York either as free agents or in trades.

[packs]

So what? The core of the team was built from within. Unless you're saying Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams, Derek Jeter, Andy Pettitte, and Jorge Posada were inconsequential to their championships and it was just a total coincidence that when they emerged on the scene the Yankees won for the first time in almost 20 years. And that's not even taking into account heroes of the moment like Ramiro Mendoza or Shane Spencer, or Ricky Ledee and you're seriously discounting the Yankees ability to sign the right guy at the right time, which can't be reflected more clearly in guys like Mike Stanton and Jeff Nelson. You call that buying players but I don't think anyone could have possibly anticipated what you were getting when you got guys like Jeff Nelson, or Mike Stanton. Paul O'Neil was a one time All Star that they traded Roberto Kelly for. That's an intelligent trade and not "buying" a player.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by packs

So what? The core of the team was built from within. Unless you're saying Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams, Derek Jeter, Andy Pettitte, and Jorge Posada were inconsequential to their championship and it was just a total coincidence that when they emerged on the scene the Yankees won for the first time in almost 20 years.

So what?????

So your argument completely fell apart.

"massive spending binge"

Cmon Pac Man remove your New York arrogance and ignorance and admit it!

There's no shame in being wrong. Which you are.


https://www.espn.com/mlb/freeagents/...8/type/dollars

[packs]

Fell apart how? Half the starting line up on that team had never put on another uniform, 2 out of 5 starting pitchers were drafted, and the entire bullpen was anchored by players who never pitched in another uniform at the time.

Find one person who talks about Yankee championships in terms of Mark Tex and AJ Burnett. You won’t find one because although they were on the team (like say a Jacoby Ellsbury) their tenure was not that of a savior.

[John1941]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Ya got one NY fan in another thread thinking this round of the MLB playoffs is 7 games, and you got this NY fan not thinking the Islanders have been around for the last 20 years.

I love that the NY fans are proving my point.

Bad teams, bad fans.

You can't write this.

Dude. What is your problem? I'm a Yankees fan, and I'm used to people being Yankees haters. But you don't have to apply your hatred to their fans. Do you really want to pick a fight with all the New York fans on this forum?

[egri]

Originally Posted by packs

So what? The core of the team was built from within. Unless you're saying Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams, Derek Jeter, Andy Pettitte, and Jorge Posada were inconsequential to their championships and it was just a total coincidence that when they emerged on the scene the Yankees won for the first time in almost 20 years. And that's not even taking into account heroes of the moment like Ramiro Mendoza or Shane Spencer, or Ricky Ledee and you're seriously discounting the Yankees ability to sign the right guy at the right time, which can't be reflected more clearly in guys like Mike Stanton and Jeff Nelson. You call that buying players but I don't think anyone could have possibly anticipated what you were getting when you got guys like Jeff Nelson, or Mike Stanton. Paul O'Neil was a one time All Star that they traded Roberto Kelly for. That's an intelligent trade and not "buying" a player.

The core four had missed the playoffs the year before, and hadn't made it past the first round since 2004. Unless you're saying that adding a former CYA winner, the AL strikeout leader from the year before, and the league leader in home runs that year was all incidental to their title run. Alex Rodriquez and Hideki Matsui had something to do with that run as well. Then they've bought plenty of players who haven't worked out either, like Carl Pavano, Jacoby Ellsbury, or Kei Igawa. I'm not sure what 'heroes of the moment' has to do with anything; sometimes you catch lightning in a bottle, sometimes you don't, and for each time you do, there are plenty of backup players who were put in the spotlight and wilted. They did a good job drafting and developing the core four, but what put them over the top was the free agent signings. The 87-win 2000 team doesn't make the playoffs without Roger Clemens, and he always turned it up a notch in the postseason.

[Leon]

Quit the bickering.
.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by John1941

Dude. What is your problem? I'm a Yankees fan, and I'm used to people being Yankees haters. But you don't have to apply your hatred to their fans. Do you really want to pick a fight with all the New York fans on this forum?

And do you want to pick a fight with Rays and Brewers fans?

They are still playing.

Stanton and Cole are playing golf.

Take a punch without the hissy fit.

posted for shoeless moe

[Hxcmilkshake]

You guys are hilarious defending the Rays "small market approach"

You know they are mid pack in terms of market size, right?

And that if they could get free agents they would right?

They do what they do out of necessity since they draw like a minor league team.

And to the guys who rip the Yankees now for spending, fine they are an ez target.

But then you can't rip them when they win??

Whatever works right?

Or you're just bitter and jealous and don't like NY for some reason?

Being bitter and jealous is a great look.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by John1941

Dude. What is your problem? I'm a Yankees fan, and I'm used to people being Yankees haters. But you don't have to apply your hatred to their fans. Do you really want to pick a fight with all the New York fans on this forum?

Some people get off on being dicks. How can you take a guy seriously when he calls himself P Diddy G?

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Leon

Quit the bickering.
.

This thread was started by one guy hoping to get the exact reaction he got. Did you really think people wouldn't respond?

[Peter_Spaeth]

What's wrong with spending money to acquire free agents to try to win championships? If an owner is willing to do that, and it's within the rules, is he supposed to say, nah, I'd rather be like the Brewers??

[clydepepper]

As a Braves fan, I am more than pleased to see anyone take their turn as 'Looserville'- even though there's a book coming out next year on Atlanta's turn.

We sat through some terrible teams -especially right before Bobby Cox came back to stay.


The falcons still belong down there.



I'm sure Cleveland doesn't mind NY taking some of the 'guff' for a while either.


Off the subject, I wish there was a way for both the White Sox AND the Asstrolls could loose their current series.

.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What's wrong with spending money to acquire free agents to try to win championships? If an owner is willing to do that, and it's within the rules, is he supposed to say, nah, I'd rather be like the Brewers??

Nobody said they couldn't spend. Packs said they didn't win because of the boatload of money they DID lay out for AROD, Matsuey, Sabbathia, Tex, and AJ.

See NYers like to think they win like everyone else, but they don't because they can't win on their own, they MUST OVERSPEND to buy a title.


There is ZERO jealousy, I'd be jealous if their sports teams were all like the '27 Yankees, yes, then I'd be jealous for sure, but the past 20 years? Be jealous of what METS have been garbage, Knicks garbage, Jets trash, etc etc.

That's that NY arrogance they think we are jealous, ha ha....we are just enjoying how bad they suck!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Nobody said they couldn't spend. Packs said they didn't win because of the boatload of money they DID lay out for AROD, Matsuey, Sabbathia, Tex, and AJ.

See NYers like to think they win like everyone else, but they don't because they can't win on their own, they MUST OVERSPEND to buy a title.


There is ZERO jealousy, I'd be jealous if their sports teams were all like the '27 Yankees, yes, then I'd be jealous for sure, but the past 20 years? Be jealous of what METS have been garbage, Knicks garbage, Jets trash, etc etc.

That's that NY arrogance they think we are jealous, ha ha....we are just enjoying how bad they suck!

It seems hard to deny that it played an important role.

[Shoeless Moe]

...and arn't the Mets (3rd Highest Payroll and not even a .500 team over the past 5 seasons) still paying Bobby Bonilla who retired like 20 years ago.

I mean come on. The stupidity of NY, it never ends. It's hilarious!

[Peter_Spaeth]

The Mets can rot forever as payback for 1986 lol. Despite being a Sox fan though I've never truly hated the Yankees, too many admirable players.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

...and arn't the Mets (3rd Highest Payroll and not even a .500 team over the past 5 seasons) still paying Bobby Bonilla who retired like 20 years ago.

I mean come on. The stupidity of NY, it never ends. It's hilarious!

They are called deferred contracts, a lot of teams do it, the Braves are still paying Bruce Sutter. I guess Atlanta is stupid too?

[mikemb]

Originally Posted by Jim65

They are called deferred contracts, a lot of teams do it, the Braves are still paying Bruce Sutter. I guess Atlanta is stupid too?

Correct. In fact Bonilla is also getting deferred salary from the Baltimore Orioles.

The Mets owed him 5.9 million when they bought out the last year of his contract. The Mets and Bonilla worked out a deal where the he would defer the payment of the 5.9 million for 10 years. Then, the Mets would pay him 1.19 million every year for 20 years. While that sounds like a lot more than the 5.9 million, due to compound interest, etc, the 2 payment scenarios (the 5.9 million right away or the 1.19 million/year after 10 years) have the same value when calculated at 8% interest annually.

The market has increased an average of about 7.4% annually since 1/1/2000.

So, not a bad financial decision.

Mike

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by mikemb

Correct. In fact Bonilla is also getting deferred salary from the Baltimore Orioles.

The Mets owed him 5.9 million when they bought out the last year of his contract. The Mets and Bonilla worked out a deal where the he would defer the payment of the 5.9 million for 10 years. Then, the Mets would pay him 1.19 million every year for 20 years. While that sounds like a lot more than the 5.9 million, due to compound interest, etc, the 2 payment scenarios (the 5.9 million right away or the 1.19 million/year after 10 years) have the same value when calculated at 8% interest annually.

The market has increased an average of about 7.4% annually since 1/1/2000.

So, not a bad financial decision.

Mike

The money deferred by Bonilla allowed the Mets to trade for and pay Mike Hampton, who won the NLCS MVP and when Hampton signed in Colorado, the Mets received a compensation draft pick which they used to draft David Wright. Funny how things work out sometimes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jim65

They are called deferred contracts, a lot of teams do it, the Braves are still paying Bruce Sutter. I guess Atlanta is stupid too?

The deferral was not a bad decision, but one could question signing him for all that money in the first place, no?

[Shoeless Moe]

Hey as long as Mets fans are happy about the financials of the deal rather then the performance of the player that's what matters.

Loveable Losers I guess.

Problem for both New York teams, that gap where they would outspend other teams by 3-4-5-6 times is now gone.

You got Boston, LA, Anaheim, etc., now willing to do the same.

[MattyC]

You should get some help. You have serious mental or anger issues with NYC. Your posts come off as unhinged.

[Snapolit1]

Chump teams? Definitely recently.

Chump fans? Hardly. New York fans can be obnoxious aholes, but each of the teams you've mention has a massive motivated fans base. Teams like the Yankees and Mets are among the most valuable sports franchises in the world? Why. Because of heir fanbases.

Many times watching the Mets this year it was clear there were more Mets fans at away games than local team fans. Lets go Mets chants everywhere. Believe me, we don't hear Let's Go Marlins or Let's Go Rockies chants in NY. I was in San Diego and there were 1000s of NYers in attendance who flew cross country (in a continuing pandemic) to cheer their team.

Most (not all players) consider playing in New York an immense career highlight. The fans are passionate beyond belief. Stupidly passionate at times. Tough when you lose but amazing when you win. Look at the 86 Mets documentary. Those guys are sports icons. As are people like Namath, Willis Reed, Jeter, Phil Sims, and many others. NY not for everyone or every player. Hardly chump fans. Like Chicago and Boston fans, highly engaged.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The deferral was not a bad decision, but one could question signing him for all that money in the first place, no?

Bonilla's first 3 years with the Met were productive, 130 OPS+

The problem was bringing him back a 2nd time just to dump Mel Rojas.