T220 Silver - Uncut Edition

[Exhibitman]

It is also possible that the proof sheet alignment was not replicated in the production sheet. I've only seen a few proof sheets before from other makers, but they were smaller than the production sheets; my guess is to make them easier to pass around the office for comment and approval.

I don't think the other ATC cards hold a candle to the ones made by the Obak/Pet/Kopec printer. Look at the depth and quality of image on these:




That's a lot more lithographic layers than the typical ATC product. The best of the other cards still have a more stylized, less layered quality:




As for T218 sheet alignment, I offer one humble piece of data:

[G1911]

As far as I am aware, this is the only "full sheet" of an ATC/AL partnership set known (not mine). It's a pre-production 'pass around' of T62, I believe, due to the tiny size that would have been completely impractical for actual production run.

I suspect the layout will tell us if this is similar, or what the probable full production run would have been. If it's one or two sheets, it's very likely the final layout as redoing the layout on a full-size sheet would seem to serve zero purpose. If it's just a couple cards together and this is many sheets, then it probably is a 'pass around'.

The Summers card is why I think T218-3 will follow this similar block printing format. I have a T29 Hippopotamus card suggesting it too was done in block format. But, my strips of T25's would show not all large-size cards in the partnership were done this way. Horizontal miscuts on the large size cards are almost non-existant. I have 3 or 4 vertical T220-2 white borders showing the same card on top of itself. Never seen a T220-1 Silver miscut either direction.

I love the West Coast T cards. It's a shame they never did a set in the larger physical format, the detail in the faces, the bold backgrounds. I've slowly begun T224/T229 the last couple months, up to a whopping 5 cards.

[Exhibitman]

I'm not sure who did the 1912 Capital [sic] Candy and Cracker set but the lithography strikes me as very similar to the West Coast cards:



I wish I could find more (I only have the Sheppard) but they are just rare as hens' teeth. And yeah, that's Jim Thorpe.

I also found another issue that has striking depth of imagery, from prewar Germany:

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

As far as I am aware, this is the only "full sheet" of an ATC/AL partnership set known (not mine). It's a pre-production 'pass around' of T62, I believe, due to the tiny size that would have been completely impractical for actual production run.

I suspect the layout will tell us if this is similar, or what the probable full production run would have been. If it's one or two sheets, it's very likely the final layout as redoing the layout on a full-size sheet would seem to serve zero purpose. If it's just a couple cards together and this is many sheets, then it probably is a 'pass around'.

The Summers card is why I think T218-3 will follow this similar block printing format. I have a T29 Hippopotamus card suggesting it too was done in block format. But, my strips of T25's would show not all large-size cards in the partnership were done this way. Horizontal miscuts on the large size cards are almost non-existant. I have 3 or 4 vertical T220-2 white borders showing the same card on top of itself. Never seen a T220-1 Silver miscut either direction.

I love the West Coast T cards. It's a shame they never did a set in the larger physical format, the detail in the faces, the bold backgrounds. I've slowly begun T224/T229 the last couple months, up to a whopping 5 cards.

There's a full sheet of S81 silks I believe that's an ATC/AL product.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

There's a full sheet of S81 silks I believe that's an ATC/AL product.

Thank you, I should have said “cards”.

[G1911]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen the Capital cards before. Those are awesome, Adam.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by G1911

As far as I am aware, this is the only "full sheet" of an ATC/AL partnership set known (not mine). It's a pre-production 'pass around' of T62, I believe, due to the tiny size that would have been completely impractical for actual production run.

I suspect the layout will tell us if this is similar, or what the probable full production run would have been. If it's one or two sheets, it's very likely the final layout as redoing the layout on a full-size sheet would seem to serve zero purpose. If it's just a couple cards together and this is many sheets, then it probably is a 'pass around'.

The Summers card is why I think T218-3 will follow this similar block printing format. I have a T29 Hippopotamus card suggesting it too was done in block format. But, my strips of T25's would show not all large-size cards in the partnership were done this way. Horizontal miscuts on the large size cards are almost non-existant. I have 3 or 4 vertical T220-2 white borders showing the same card on top of itself. Never seen a T220-1 Silver miscut either direction.

I love the West Coast T cards. It's a shame they never did a set in the larger physical format, the detail in the faces, the bold backgrounds. I've slowly begun T224/T229 the last couple months, up to a whopping 5 cards.

Yes, that would be a progressive proof. There are still some books from ALC that have complete progressive proofs of each color plus most combinations for cigar box labels.

I don't recall ever seeing a full book for cards.

I think it's likely these were from the masters used to print the layout transfers for the production plates/stones.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

Yes, that would be a progressive proof. There are still some books from ALC that have complete progressive proofs of each color plus most combinations for cigar box labels.

I don't recall ever seeing a full book for cards.

I think it's likely these were from the masters used to print the layout transfers for the production plates/stones.

Steve, is that why we see tearing by the alignment marks I've seen it on other sheets and Greg's Jordan panel with the alignment marks on the border is torn.
Were they held down with tape?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

[/B]

Steve, is that why we see tearing by the alignment marks I've seen it on other sheets and Greg's Jordan panel with the alignment marks on the border is torn.
Were they held down with tape?

There is also a tear on one of the E229 panels where a side alignment mark is, if this might matter.

[Pat R]

Greg, were the T220's a one or two series release?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Greg, were the T220's a one or two series release?

I think two. The silver border series was definitley printed and done first, only from Mecca 649 (the only Mecca release to not have a factory 30 version). We know this because of the Coburn card; the man to his left on the Silver border card was for some reason removed from the image for the white border. There are two variations of his white border card showing different levels of removal of the man in the background.

The change in card images strongly suggests to me the silver's were not issued concurrently with the white borders, but this can't be stated as absolute fact.

The checklist was then expanded to 50 cards and issued as a single (probably) White Border series, with Mecca and Tolstoi. You can tell, for the non-fight-between cards, purely by the style of the artwork and its background whether a card was first produced in the Silver run or was only issued with the second series. I would think there was likely a gap between Mecca and Tolstoi's release of the 2nd series white border run, if the date in the ATC ledger is accurate.


I think it is a strong possibility that, internally, ATC thought of T220 as the same set as T218 (note the series caption on card backs, there are no "athletes" in T220, used by 2 of the 3 T218 brands; 2 of which did not issue the entire set), and T220 is really the third series of T218, making what we call the third series actually the fourth series.

[G1911]

I hope some of this stuff means something to you, Steve, I don't know squat about printing really.

For the sake of completeness, here are my T25 strips I got recently, clearly not printed in block format. These two strips do not fit together, and have a right side border. Presumably there were more cards to the left in each row.

This is all I know of of uncut ATC/presumed American Lithographic cardboard cards. The T62 internal test sheet, these T25's, the T220 Silver's, These E229 or D353 sheets, and then of course the famed Wagner strip. There is probably more known to others, this is just all I have records of in my photo archive or possession.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think two. The silver border series was definitley printed and done first, only from Mecca 649 (the only Mecca release to not have a factory 30 version). We know this because of the Coburn card; the man to his left on the Silver border card was for some reason removed from the image for the white border. There are two variations of his white border card showing different levels of removal of the man in the background.

The change in card images strongly suggests to me the silver's were not issued concurrently with the white borders, but this can't be stated as absolute fact.

The checklist was then expanded to 50 cards and issued as a single (probably) White Border series, with Mecca and Tolstoi. You can tell, for the non-fight-between cards, purely by the style of the artwork and its background whether a card was first produced in the Silver run or was only issued with the second series. I would think there was likely a gap between Mecca and Tolstoi's release of the 2nd series white border run, if the date in the ATC ledger is accurate.


I think it is a strong possibility that, internally, ATC thought of T220 as the same set as T218 (note the series caption on card backs, there are no "athletes" in T220, used by 2 of the 3 T218 brands; 2 of which did not issue the entire set), and T220 is really the third series of T218, making what we call the third series actually the fourth series.

Thanks Greg. What I was wondering was if there were any of the panels that would seem out of sequence on this sheet but if the silver run was one series any of the T220 subjects could make up a panel on a silver sheet.

For what it worth as far as the T220 Tolstoi's go I strongly feel the Tolstoi back were printed later in each T206 series that they were printed in. I felt that way before I knew about the ATC journal and the info in the journal that pretty much backs it up.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

[/B]

Steve, is that why we see tearing by the alignment marks I've seen it on other sheets and Greg's Jordan panel with the alignment marks on the border is torn.
Were they held down with tape?

They were bound into books, sometimes with string similar to the 1800's albums.

Here's a not so great video showing one in a bit of detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZfLR3rf85I

Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkFAlTW--Yg

I'm not sure why there would be tearing at the alignment marks. Maybe if they were folding it up there to check something on the layout? But that's just a guess, and probably not a good guess.

[Pat R]

The discussion involving the T218's reminded me of this newspaper clip that I posted here awhile back would this have been T218's or could it have been some other issue? It was in a February 11 1911 newspaper.

[IMG][/IMG]

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

The discussion involving the T218's reminded me of this newspaper clip that I posted here awhile back would this have been T218's or could it have been some other issue? It was in a February 11 1911 newspaper.

Interesting, it’s not T218, E229, T224, T230. None of these have a Robert Williamson in the checklist, or a person in it close to that. I don’t know what cigarette card this could be…