Restored Honus Wagner at SCP Auctions

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by tulsaboy

I'm not a pre-war collector, though I sure like to learn from this group and to see everyone's collections. They are mind blowing. I am curious to watch over the next few decades to see how prevalent "restoration" becomes in the sportscard industry. In other collectable/art markets, it is perfectly acceptable (and sometimes actually adds value.) Major museums regularly do cleanings of old art, and as part of those cleanings often gently touch up some of the art where age/weathering/poor treatment has taken its toll. When art is defaced by museum visitors, it is often restored to eliminate/remove the damage. I know that similar approaches are taken with vintage posters and prints. Being familiar with vintage cars, it is of course routine to restore older vehicles (though there is a niche market for untouched, factory original examples as well.) I completely understand that the idea of filling in paper loss, recoloring areas that are missing color, removing marks etc. is repugnant to (probably) most sportscard collectors. Personally, I like em just as they are, warts and all. But tobacco cards, like the T206, are now well over 100 years old. And they are cardboard. Cards that have now been slabbed are probably mostly protected from further damage from handling and accidents, but the vast bulk of cards that are not in holders will continue to age and sustain damage. I am just interested to see whether or not these items, as they push through their second century of existence, begin to experience more "restoration." And, most importantly, whether or not that becomes an accepted practice.
kevin

Kevin you have some really valid points. Thanks for sharing them.
I do not believe (but I could easily be wrong) that restorations will be common in Card collecting. Even with the higher dollar cards. For one the way grading companies grade and then classify it (ie instead of raising the "grade" it gets either and Authentic, Altered, or Restored grade on it. Just as you see on the one in SGC. That results in less bidders at the higher prices like you have seen in several recent but past auctions. In addition card collecting has a "purity" to it and an appreciation for the life of that card. So anything that takes away from that devalues it somewhat

[drcy]

With old art and such, a lot of it is about preservation too-- deacidifying paper. For a lot of things that will deteriorate, it is recommended.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Kevin you have some really valid points. Thanks for sharing them.
I do not believe (but I could easily be wrong) that restorations will be common in Card collecting. Even with the higher dollar cards. For one the way grading companies grade and then classify it (ie instead of raising the "grade" it gets either and Authentic, Altered, or Restored grade on it. Just as you see on the one in SGC. That results in less bidders at the higher prices like you have seen in several recent but past auctions. In addition card collecting has a "purity" to it and an appreciation for the life of that card. So anything that takes away from that devalues it somewhat

Part of the problem from my perspective is that so many of the decisions made by the TPGs about what constitutes an "alteration" to begin with is borderline arbitrary. A card that has tape on it hasn't been altered? Really? But if you remove the tape, then it has? Lol. But only sometimes? Uhh, OK. And if the surface of a card gets dented by something, then that lowers the grade because a card with an indent is a damaged card. Unless of course the surface damage we're talking about was caused by a screw down holder smashing down the corners. That's not "damage", that's an "alteration", tantamount to trimming or recoloring a card. And speaking of timing, apparently even that's OK to do with some cards but not others. Some of this stuff is just ridiculous. The screw down holder damage equating to an alteration is the probably the one that irks me the most. The TPGs should treat that like they do with creases. Just have a rule that says a card can't grade higher than a 5 if it has screw down damage or something like that, but don't stamp it with some scarlet letter and no explanation at all for why the card received it. The fact that PSA does not differentiate between "trimmed", "recolored", and "screwed down too tight" on their slabs is a real shame. Because I guarantee the market would value those all differently if they knew the reason behind the grades.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Part of the problem from my perspective is that so many of the decisions made by the TPGs about what constitutes an "alteration" to begin with is borderline arbitrary. A card that has tape on it hasn't been altered? Really? But if you remove the tape, then it has? Lol. But only sometimes? Uhh, OK. And if the surface of a card gets dented by something, then that lowers the grade because a card with an indent is a damaged card. Unless of course the surface damage we're talking about was caused by a screw down holder smashing down the corners. That's not "damage", that's an "alteration", tantamount to trimming or recoloring a card. And speaking of timing, apparently even that's OK to do with some cards but not others. Some of this stuff is just ridiculous. The screw down holder damage equating to an alteration is the probably the one that irks me the most. The TPGs should treat that like they do with creases. Just have a rule that says a card can't grade higher than a 5 if it has screw down damage or something like that, but don't stamp it with some scarlet letter and no explanation at all for why the card received it. The fact that PSA does not differentiate between "trimmed", "recolored", and "screwed down too tight" on their slabs is a real shame. Because I guarantee the market would value those all differently if they knew the reason behind the grades.

To take this point to the next degree, doesn't the same argument -- the arbitrariness of TPG grading standards -- apply to the criteria used to designate a card any particular grade (e.g., ex-mt, nrmt, vgex, ex+, etc.)? The "7" Goudey Ruth in this same SCP auction makes the point well. The card is terribly faded, and to me has poor eye appeal. Yet it merits a "7"? Or how about blank-backed photographic cards (e.g., N172s) that have amazing photo contrast but some minor glitch on the verso? Such a card could grade a 2, while a card with a photo so dim one has difficulty making out who the player is gets an 8 because to the TPG sages the card is "technically" outstanding?

I remember well when TPG first came into being. At that time the consensus was that overall it was a good thing due to the arbitrariness and inherent conflict of interest associated with AHs/dealers grading their own material. But now a generation or so later and seeing what TPG grading has become, I sometimes wonder if the cure has turned out worse than the disease.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Part of the problem from my perspective is that so many of the decisions made by the TPGs about what constitutes an "alteration" to begin with is borderline arbitrary. A card that has tape on it hasn't been altered? Really? But if you remove the tape, then it has? Lol. But only sometimes? Uhh, OK. And if the surface of a card gets dented by something, then that lowers the grade because a card with an indent is a damaged card. Unless of course the surface damage we're talking about was caused by a screw down holder smashing down the corners. That's not "damage", that's an "alteration", tantamount to trimming or recoloring a card. And speaking of timing, apparently even that's OK to do with some cards but not others. Some of this stuff is just ridiculous. The screw down holder damage equating to an alteration is the probably the one that irks me the most. The TPGs should treat that like they do with creases. Just have a rule that says a card can't grade higher than a 5 if it has screw down damage or something like that, but don't stamp it with some scarlet letter and no explanation at all for why the card received it. The fact that PSA does not differentiate between "trimmed", "recolored", and "screwed down too tight" on their slabs is a real shame. Because I guarantee the market would value those all differently if they knew the reason behind the grades.

Hey, a Snowman post I actually agree with

The arbitrary and contradictory nature of what's considered alteration has always been something that bugged me.

I will also admit that restoration - when it's done well, not like this particular Wagner - is not something that particularly bothers me. I'd rather have a card with a pinhole fixed than the pinhole, for example.