1991 Desert Shield set - advice

ALR-bishop · #1 10-27-2021, 02:24 PM

I am not smart enough to understand either Bitcoin or grading of sports cards, so I avoid both. On the other hand many people do real well with both.

Lots of threads on the main board about issues involving graded cards.

Avalanche325 · #2 10-27-2021, 03:56 PM

Bitcoin I understand. Baseball cards......that is complicated.
Doing some reading on how to spot a fake. Down the rabbit hole I go.

Statfreak101 · #3 11-06-2021, 10:14 AM

Alright guys, help me out.

Does this look like a legit DS logo/card?

https://ibb.co/tbNywTk https://ibb.co/tbNywTk
https://ibb.co/PwH3tq2

Statfreak101 · #4 11-06-2021, 10:53 AM

Some more pictures. While I'm no expert, I believe these are not legit.

I got these out of an unopened pack from a seller who claims they are 100% legit and from a DS box.

Thoughts??

https://ibb.co/tbNywTk
https://ibb.co/PwH3tq2
https://ibb.co/tx9SMn6
https://ibb.co/SJkkJ9L
https://ibb.co/3FFj6JM
https://ibb.co/M5PrGy0
https://ibb.co/HCZcvq7

Aquarian Sports Cards · #5 11-06-2021, 01:58 PM

My problem is false negatives from grading companies. I understand it, but not every rejected card is actually fake. The foil stamping process is not an exact science. You will get stronger and weaker stamps. Even the Boggs in this thread I wouldn't rule out 100% as it looks like an overly heavy stamp, but I see a lot of the correct details under all that excess foil. I have dealt with these quite a bit and they are a very frustrating set.

bnorth · #6 11-06-2021, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My problem is false negatives from grading companies. I understand it, but not every rejected card is actually fake. The foil stamping process is not an exact science. You will get stronger and weaker stamps. Even the Boggs in this thread I wouldn't rule out 100% as it looks like an overly heavy stamp, but I see a lot of the correct details under all that excess foil. I have dealt with these quite a bit and they are a very frustrating set.

That Boggs isn't even close. I do agree that the graders are horrible with these cards. For me the big thing is getting a good picture you can enlarge or a minimum of a 10X loupe and a known real one in hand to compare.

Zach Wheat · #7 11-11-2021, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My problem is false negatives from grading companies. I understand it, but not every rejected card is actually fake. The foil stamping process is not an exact science. You will get stronger and weaker stamps. Even the Boggs in this thread I wouldn't rule out 100% as it looks like an overly heavy stamp, but I see a lot of the correct details under all that excess foil. I have dealt with these quite a bit and they are a very frustrating set.

Scott's raises an interesting point about the embossing. What is the answer? I am really not sure - but some variability is likely.

Is there anyone on here familiar with embossing? If so it would be helpful to get their input.

One of the issues with discussing DS cards is that every time more information comes out on how to spot a fake, the fakes get better. So I am not going to discuss these issues. I am not an expert on DS cards but I have reviewed quite a few. And fakes are getting better all the time. And some fakes have been graded by every grading service.

My original reference samples come from one of the creators of the DS set. He was a Topps executive in charge of the initial set design and production. He would take home sample sheets of this and other sets, presumably to review before the sets went in to full production. I was told other Topps people working on the set, also took home sample sheets. Sadly, the Topps exec passed before I got much information about the production of the set. The set is believed to be printed in 1 limited print run early on in the printing process after some corrections were made (cards with corrections i.e. updated have a " * " on the back near the copyright logo) and they started adding brighteners to the ink.

To those not familiar with the background, I bought the DS samples in sheet form from the estate of the Topps exec. The estate had several thousand sheets and they were in the process of sending them to an auction house. I ended up purchasing 11 sheets total, almost 2 complete sets, about 1,500 cards total, including 2 Chipper cards.

It seems clear Topps was experimenting with different things throughout this process as they began experimenting with ink brighteners, which led to cards with "glow backs" as noted by 4Reals. The print run is thought to be very small and it is believed Topps made 1 print run after they corrected most of the major stat/name errors early on in the print run in an attempt to get cards printed and shipped overseas before Operation Desert Shield ended. You can spot some fake DS cards by these characteristics

The card characteristics noted in previous discussions are consistent from card to card on every sheet. The embossing is also very consistent. Embossing for the most part includes one style, one width for the lines, one font, same spacing between letters, same letter positioning, embossing that is in the exact same position on each card with the overall embossing being of consistent, clear quality. There are very few smudges or areas where the embossing didn't get transferred. There are very few cards where there is excess embossing.

It is likely the Topps exec pulled these sheets at the start of the print run to take them home and examine the sheets prior to full production. How consistent is the embossing process over an entire print run? Unsure. Some variability is likely - but just unsure of the answer to Scott's point above. Definitely a good point and worth discussing.

Thoughts?

bnorth · #8 11-11-2021, 03:11 PM

Great post Mr Wheat.

For me there is about 10 things I look at. With me if they are not all correct it is bad. I have cards with varying amounts of the logo. Thing is the parts that are there are correct. These logos and the placement of them are very consistent. I have only seen one real logo that was way off from the normal position for that card.

The thing I see the most with people that have bad cards is they find a couple things that are correct and ignore all the problem areas.

For full disclosure if Mr Wheat isn't a expert I am just an observant novice.

4reals · #9 11-12-2021, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

The set is believed to be printed in 1 limited print run early on in the printing process after some corrections were made (cards with corrections i.e. updated have a " * " on the back near the copyright logo)

ZW, I had never heard this before. This would be another great box the check when ensuring a card isn�t fake before purchasing. I own a complete DS set and would love to cross reference my examples with this point. Do you happen to have a list of cards in the set that should have an asterisk next to the copyright that you can share either publicly or privately?
-4R

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ALR-bishop · #10 11-06-2021, 02:01 PM

If I was seeking this advice I would pm the poster Zach Wheat who posted once earlier in this thread. He and Ben, who also posted in here, are the most knowledgeable people I know on the issue. I have a set myself that I am satisfied with as to authenticity, but do not have the expertise with the issue to give you an opinion based on the scans you provided.

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