PWCC Auctions - Mystery Bid Post Auction?

rhettyeakley · #1 10-29-2021, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I'm shocked at the number of Net54 members still willing to deal with PWCC.

Just kidding...no I'm not.

What he said.

Why do we choose to do business with these people? It is almost like we go out of our way to lift the biggest slime-ball’s to the top of this hobby/industry!

Peter_Spaeth · #2 10-29-2021, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

What he said.

Why do we choose to do business with these people? It is almost like we go out of our way to lift the biggest slime-ball�s to the top of this hobby/industry!

You know the answer, Rhett.

Carter08 · #3 10-29-2021, 10:28 PM

The pwcc issues sort of pre-date me getting back into collecting but I�ve read up on it a bit. Scary stuff but one thing I�ll say is I hope to not have to worry about the seller all that much. If they are selling me a graded card I can do research on it and life will be ok. If there�s an issue with the card inside the holder and it shouldn�t have received the assigned grade my first thought goes to thinking there�s an issue with the grading company that needs to be fixed. Just my two cents.

Note: If anyone sells me a reasonably priced 33 Goudey and/or 48 leaf Ruth I promise I will never look to pwcc again.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 10-29-2021, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

The pwcc issues sort of pre-date me getting back into collecting but I�ve read up on it a bit. Scary stuff but one thing I�ll say is I hope to not have to worry about the seller all that much. If they are selling me a graded card I can do research on it and life will be ok. If there�s an issue with the card inside the holder and it shouldn�t have received the assigned grade my first thought goes to thinking there�s an issue with the grading company that needs to be fixed. Just my two cents.

Note: If anyone sells me a reasonably priced 33 Goudey and/or 48 leaf Ruth I promise I will never look to pwcc again.

There may be an issue with the grading company, but now (hypothetically) you're the one with the bad card and good luck getting the grading company to help you.

I would guess most collectors are not doing any research before buying those slabs. Kudos to you if you are.

Snowman · #5 10-29-2021, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There may be an issue with the grading company, but now (hypothetically) you're the one with the bad card and good luck getting the grading company to help you.

I would guess most collectors are not doing any research before buying those slabs. Kudos to you if you are.

Serious question. What if the majority of collectors today simply don't care if a card was "restored" or not? What if they only care about how it looks and that it is slabbed and that there is a market/demand for it?

I'm not belittling the opinions of the purists, they're certainly entitled to their preferences, but in nearly every other hobby, "alterations" or "restorations" or whatever else you want to call them are widely accepted. Sometimes it just feels like the purists are attempting to demand their preferences on the masses. But what if it's actually the purists who are outnumbered?

I personally don't care about the majority of the alterations I've seen. Hell, I've even been buying up some pretty big cards in 'authentic' slabs lately (52T mantle, 52T mays, 48 leaf Jackie, 33 Goudey Ruth, an MJ/Lebron RC dual auto card, and more, all in authentic slabs). In many cases I actually prefer the restored card to the "before" pictured cards in a lot of the BODA posts. That 52 Mantle card on Blowhard that started much of this controversy is a prime example. Give me the "restored" version of that card all day long. I'd even pay top dollar for it. Those alterations don't bother me one bit. As long as it's well-centered with good eye appeal, crease free, and measures to size, that's all I care. I don't know what percentage of collectors in this hobby don't care about these alterations, but I guarantee it's a much much higher percentage of people than one would think if their only exposure to the hobby was through the forums. All those BODA threads, while ultimately informative and helpful, are just filled with the same dozen or so voices constantly regurgitating the same arguments over and over and they all just circle jerk together while they play whack-a-mole on anyone with a dissenting opinion. A very small number of people are responsible for well in excess of half the content in those threads, and many are extremely rude, aggressive, and abrasive toward anyone with a different opinion. It pushes people away. It's like the Twittersphere of this hobby. Just a bunch of monkeys throwing shit at each other. I believe if it was a more open discussion with dissenting views being tolerated, we'd see a much more healthy debate and far more people chiming in who aren't bothered by all these altered cards. But posting in those threads is like walking into a landmine field. So people just avoid it altogether.

Don't get me wrong. I still avoid rattlers. I still avoid hideously recolored cards. But it's because they look mangled that I don't want them in my collection. But if I were at a show and the dealer told me that the raw 1954 Topps Al Rosen card in VG-EX condition I'm interested in buying for $5 was previously oversized and stuck out like a sore thumb in a stack so he micro trimmed 1/32" off the bottom and now it measures correctly to size, I honestly couldn't care less as long as it wasn't noticeable, and I would gladly put it in my set to replace an off-centered copy with a crease that hadn't been altered. If a card has been altered, but the alteration is undetectable, then what difference does it make? Honestly? At what point are you guys just yelling at clouds?

jayshum · #6 10-30-2021, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Serious question. What if the majority of collectors today simply don't care if a card was "restored" or not? What if they only care about how it looks and that it is slabbed and that there is a market/demand for it?

I'm not belittling the opinions of the purists, they're certainly entitled to their preferences, but in nearly every other hobby, "alterations" or "restorations" or whatever else you want to call them are widely accepted. Sometimes it just feels like the purists are attempting to demand their preferences on the masses. But what if it's actually the purists who are outnumbered?

I personally don't care about the majority of the alterations I've seen. Hell, I've even been buying up some pretty big cards in 'authentic' slabs lately (52T mantle, 52T mays, 48 leaf Jackie, 33 Goudey Ruth, an MJ/Lebron RC dual auto card, and more, all in authentic slabs). In many cases I actually prefer the restored card to the "before" pictured cards in a lot of the BODA posts. That 52 Mantle card on Blowhard that started much of this controversy is a prime example. Give me the "restored" version of that card all day long. I'd even pay top dollar for it. Those alterations don't bother me one bit. As long as it's well-centered with good eye appeal, crease free, and measures to size, that's all I care. I don't know what percentage of collectors in this hobby don't care about these alterations, but I guarantee it's a much much higher percentage of people than one would think if their only exposure to the hobby was through the forums. All those BODA threads, while ultimately informative and helpful, are just filled with the same dozen or so voices constantly regurgitating the same arguments over and over and they all just circle jerk together while they play whack-a-mole on anyone with a dissenting opinion. A very small number of people are responsible for well in excess of half the content in those threads, and many are extremely rude, aggressive, and abrasive toward anyone with a different opinion. It pushes people away. It's like the Twittersphere of this hobby. Just a bunch of monkeys throwing shit at each other. I believe if it was a more open discussion with dissenting views being tolerated, we'd see a much more healthy debate and far more people chiming in who aren't bothered by all these altered cards. But posting in those threads is like walking into a landmine field. So people just avoid it altogether.

Don't get me wrong. I still avoid rattlers. I still avoid hideously recolored cards. But it's because they look mangled that I don't want them in my collection. But if I were at a show and the dealer told me that the raw 1954 Topps Al Rosen card in VG-EX condition I'm interested in buying for $5 was previously oversized and stuck out like a sore thumb in a stack so he micro trimmed 1/32" off the bottom and now it measures correctly to size, I honestly couldn't care less as long as it wasn't noticeable, and I would gladly put it in my set to replace an off-centered copy with a crease that hadn't been altered. If a card has been altered, but the alteration is undetectable, then what difference does it make? Honestly? At what point are you guys just yelling at clouds?

There's a difference between cards that are altered being sold in slabs that actually indicate it compared to altered cards that end up with numeric grades (and sell for way more than they did before altering). If the alteration is disclosed (either by the seller or through being graded as such), then people can make up their own minds about buying the card or not with full knowledge of what has been done to it. I think the issue most people have is when a card has been altered and graded without the alteration being disclosed.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 10-30-2021, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

There's a difference between cards that are altered being sold in slabs that actually indicate it compared to altered cards that end up with numeric grades (and sell for way more than they did before altering). If the alteration is disclosed (either by the seller or through being graded as such), then people can make up their own minds about buying the card or not with full knowledge of what has been done to it. I think the issue most people have is when a card has been altered and graded without the alteration being disclosed.

Exactly. It's all about disclosure. If it isn't disclosed, it's fraud. Many of us aren't interested in rewarding the skill of some criminal who can make cards look prettier. Originality may not be important to others, I get that. But that choice should be made on an informed basis, not on the basis of deception.

Rhotchkiss · #8 10-30-2021, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

There's a difference between cards that are altered being sold in slabs that actually indicate it compared to altered cards that end up with numeric grades (and sell for way more than they did before altering). If the alteration is disclosed (either by the seller or through being graded as such), then people can make up their own minds about buying the card or not with full knowledge of what has been done to it. I think the issue most people have is when a card has been altered and graded without the alteration being disclosed.

+100

The issue is not whether the card is altered, but whether an �expert� authentication and grading company has certified/slabbed an altered card with a numerical grade, implying it has not been altered.

There are countless examples of PSA reaffirming their grades in the face of overwhelming evidence of grading. Beckett snd SGC are hardly clean themselves (although I openly favor SGC and think they do the nest job/make the fewest mistakes?

carlsonjok · #9 10-30-2021, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Serious question. What if the majority of collectors today simply don't care if a card was "restored" or not? What if they only care about how it looks and that it is slabbed and that there is a market/demand for it?

I believe your question answers itself. The nouveau entrants aren't collectors, they are investors.

They are certainly free to do as they wish, including never actually handling their ~~cards~~, sorry assets. But, many long time collectors, who actually love the hobby as something more than a store of value, are getting squeezed out. And, it isn't limited to the premium cards. It has filtered down to the shallow end of the hobby pool, where I swim. The prices on vintage commons have increased to the point that I am making almost no progress on set builds. When the elephants fight, it is the grass that gets trampled.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #10 10-29-2021, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

The pwcc issues sort of pre-date me getting back into collecting but I’ve read up on it a bit. Scary stuff but one thing I’ll say is I hope to not have to worry about the seller all that much. If they are selling me a graded card I can do research on it and life will be ok. If there’s an issue with the card inside the holder and it shouldn’t have received the assigned grade my first thought goes to thinking there’s an issue with the grading company that needs to be fixed. Just my two cents.

Note: If anyone sells me a reasonably priced 33 Goudey and/or 48 leaf Ruth I promise I will never look to pwcc again.

I've had two gorgeous mid grade leaf Ruth 48's in the past few months, and a few Goudey Ruths coming up in November.

I find it hard to believe you can't find these cards at better than PWCC prices.

Snowman · #11 10-29-2021, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I've had two gorgeous mid grade leaf Ruth 48's in the past few months, and a few Goudey Ruths coming up in November.

I find it hard to believe you can't find these cards at better than PWCC prices.

The Goudey Ruths have been pulling premium prices at every AH I've been following this past year. I don't think there's an end in sight to that either. I say get em while you still can.

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