Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

Mark17 · #1 11-08-2021, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Prove it!

Problem is, you and everyone else has absoluetly no way to do so, so you and others comfortably keep spouting this crap about how players from today's modern era are always so much better than those from long past, and while you can't possibly prove it, nobody can disprove it either, so lucky you.

The superiority of the modern athlete is easily proven in track and field and weightlifting events, where there are actual, unbiased metrics to do so. The 4 minute mile seemed impossible during the deadball era, and wasn't accomplished until 1954. From Wikipedia:

A four-minute mile is the completion of a mile run (1.6 km) in four minutes or less. It was first achieved in 1954 by Roger Bannister, at age 25, in 3:59.4. The "four-minute barrier" has since been broken by over 1,400 athletes, and is now the standard of professional middle distance runners in several cultures.

In the 65 years since, the mile record has been lowered by almost 17 seconds, and currently stands at 3:43.13, by Hicham El Guerrouj of Morocco, at age 24, in 1999.

There, I've proved athletes of today are superior to those of 100 years ago. Lucky me.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 11-08-2021, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

The superiority of the modern athlete is easily proven in track and field and weightlifting events, where there are actual, unbiased metrics to do so. The 4 minute mile seemed impossible during the deadball era, and wasn't accomplished until 1954. From Wikipedia:

A four-minute mile is the completion of a mile run (1.6 km) in four minutes or less. It was first achieved in 1954 by Roger Bannister, at age 25, in 3:59.4. The "four-minute barrier" has since been broken by over 1,400 athletes, and is now the standard of professional middle distance runners in several cultures.

In the 65 years since, the mile record has been lowered by almost 17 seconds, and currently stands at 3:43.13, by Hicham El Guerrouj of Morocco, at age 24, in 1999.

There, I've proved athletes of today are superior to those of 100 years ago. Lucky me.

The thing about the mile record is that it hasn't been broken since 1999, which I find unbelievable.

Mark17 · #3 11-08-2021, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The thing about the mile record is that it hasn't been broken since 1999, which I find unbelievable.

I'm not saying every year, or every 5 years, there is advancement. But in 1910 a 4 minute mile was fantasy. According to Wiki, it's fairly common now. It stands to reason this applies to other physical abilities as well.

Usain Bolt would be faster around the bases than Jim Thorpe, or Hans Lobert, or any pre war human being for instance, and skill superiority like that, of the modern athlete is, in fact provable.

BobC · #4 11-08-2021, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

The superiority of the modern athlete is easily proven in track and field and weightlifting events, where there are actual, unbiased metrics to do so. The 4 minute mile seemed impossible during the deadball era, and wasn't accomplished until 1954. From Wikipedia:

A four-minute mile is the completion of a mile run (1.6 km) in four minutes or less. It was first achieved in 1954 by Roger Bannister, at age 25, in 3:59.4. The "four-minute barrier" has since been broken by over 1,400 athletes, and is now the standard of professional middle distance runners in several cultures.

In the 65 years since, the mile record has been lowered by almost 17 seconds, and currently stands at 3:43.13, by Hicham El Guerrouj of Morocco, at age 24, in 1999.

There, I've proved athletes of today are superior to those of 100 years ago. Lucky me.

Yeah, but what about a human ancestor from back around the time of the Ice Age that suddenly caught the attention of a hungry predator? I could see them breaking a 4 minute mile out of necessity. Its just that none of us were there to view and actually time the run. So there's one way I'm looking to disprove your comment. And also my original statement was refering to baseball players, and more specically pitchers. Not track athletes, basketball, or football players. In which case go look at the likes of David Wells, C.C: Sabathia, or even better, Bartolo Colon. I rest my case and am back to being correct in my original statement, and unlucky you.

Truth be known, people tend to keep improving such things as records are broken, so others then make breaking that new record their priority and train with even more focus and conviction. Plus people now start training and specializing for such goals at ever earlier ages, like the Williams sisters whose story is documented in the latest Will Smith movie "King Richard". Plus you have further impovements due to advances in medicine and science, training techniques, and even diet and nutrition. Humans have kind of advanced now to the point where you won't see much in the way of gains in new records. There is a point where the human body will hit its physical limit, but then can't go beyond that.

For example, read somewhere that the fastest a human body could possibly throw a baseball is supposedly around 110 MPH. But what's the current record, around 102 - 103 MPH? To get closer to that top speed though you'd have to find a human with the absolutely perfect body and physique, and then they'd actually have to be interested in throwing a ball that fast. And be willing to put in the training and effort to acheive it. Chances are there is a human or two on the planet that could do it, but they have neither the knowledge of that potential ability, nor the desire to act on and train for it. And some sports are given to advantages simply based on size or height. Baseball is one of those sports where physical size isn't always an advantage, nor indicative of the better players (Altuve, Jose' Ramirez, etc.). So the idea of modern ballplayers all being that much better athletes than those playing 75 or 100 years ago is not going to be that great, and will most likely be even less going forward from today.

Kutcher55 · #5 11-09-2021, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

The superiority of the modern athlete is easily proven in track and field and weightlifting events, where there are actual, unbiased metrics to do so. The 4 minute mile seemed impossible during the deadball era, and wasn't accomplished until 1954. From Wikipedia:

A four-minute mile is the completion of a mile run (1.6 km) in four minutes or less. It was first achieved in 1954 by Roger Bannister, at age 25, in 3:59.4. The "four-minute barrier" has since been broken by over 1,400 athletes, and is now the standard of professional middle distance runners in several cultures.

In the 65 years since, the mile record has been lowered by almost 17 seconds, and currently stands at 3:43.13, by Hicham El Guerrouj of Morocco, at age 24, in 1999.

There, I've proved athletes of today are superior to those of 100 years ago. Lucky me.

No you haven�t �proven� anything. Modern training methods combined with superior footwear contributed to this. You can�t say for certain that bannister et al wouldn�t have been capable of shaving seconds off their times. Now I think globalization and just a higher pop count suggests on a level playing field El Guerrouj would have beaten those guys but the clock alone is not proof of anything.

Exhibitman · #6 11-09-2021, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

No you haven�t �proven� anything. Modern training methods combined with superior footwear contributed to this. You can�t say for certain that bannister et al wouldn�t have been capable of shaving seconds off their times. Now I think globalization and just a higher pop count suggests on a level playing field El Guerrouj would have beaten those guys but the clock alone is not proof of anything.

Reminds me of my mother in law, one of the 'these days' types. Once at dinner she said "the animals are different these days." Really? Did they evolve during your lifetime?

Mark17 · #7 11-09-2021, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Reminds me of my mother in law, one of the 'these days' types. Once at dinner she said "the animals are different these days." Really? Did they evolve during your lifetime?

Agreed, your mother in law doesn't sound too bright.

Kutcher55 · #8 11-10-2021, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

Agreed, your mother in law doesn't sound too bright.

Yeah and you don�t sound too bright either. The other factor here is PEDs. And did you notice the 400 meter hurdle record in the Olympics? Track surfaces have changed over time with technology. Stick to arguing about baseball. You obviously know nothing about track and field. And using the term �proof� in subjective arguments is proof of your own lack of intelligence.

Mark17 · #9 11-10-2021, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kutcher55

Yeah and you don�t sound too bright either. The other factor here is PEDs. And did you notice the 400 meter hurdle record in the Olympics? Track surfaces have changed over time with technology. Stick to arguing about baseball. You obviously know nothing about track and field. And using the term �proof� in subjective arguments is proof of your own lack of intelligence.

How many Olympic records from 1910, or even 1950, still stand?

Kutcher55 · #10 11-10-2021, 04:47 AM

You�re missing the point. There�s a difference between fastest and best. The best argument for El Guerrouj, who was indisputably great btw, is that globalization has made it possible for guys from Africa and elsewhere to compete on an international stage and there might have been an El Guerrouj from Bannister�s era who never had the opportunity to compete. Guys in D1 colleges can run a sub 4 minute mile now. Even the occasionally high schooler goes sub 4. It doesn�t make them greater than Roger Bannister in the annals of track and field history. And there�s little doubt Bannister would have run significantly faster on modern tracks with modern equipment and modern training techniques.

Take the whole Nicklaus vs Tiger argument. Jack won more majors but Tiger played in a more competitive era. He won the Masters by 12 and the US Open by 15. I think Tiger was greater but there�s no definitive proof of this.

Bannister revolutionized middle distance training and was the best man during his time.

bnorth · #11 11-11-2021, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Reminds me of my mother in law, one of the 'these days' types. Once at dinner she said "the animals are different these days." Really? Did they evolve during your lifetime?

Actually a lot of animals have drastically changed in her lifetime. Not evolution but selective breeding. Especially the ones we eat for dinner.

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