Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I guess I'd appreciate my all-time pitcher to still be pitching at a high level at age 37 instead of having 5 summers of sitting on a shelf, but maybe I'm off base??

LOL he actually retired at 30. And he wasn't very good until he was 25. He had a phenomenal 6 year run (probably better characterized as 5, the first year was only very good) and that was it.

At his zenith, was he as good as anyone? I guess that depends how much weight you put on the disparity between his home and road stats.

But I think there are a lot of externalities that have enhanced his reputation.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I was coming on to point out that people act like Koufax took forever to develop when he was actually incredibly young when he started and stuck on a major league roster because of his bonus baby status, same as his 1954 classmate Harmon Killebrew. Both likely would've benefited by a couple of years in the minors instead of languishing on a major league bench, but both were still a "normal" age when they put it all together.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I was coming on to point out that people act like Koufax took forever to develop when he was actually incredibly young when he started and stuck on a major league roster because of his bonus baby status, same as his 1954 classmate Harmon Killebrew. Both likely would've benefited by a couple of years in the minors instead of languishing on a major league bench, but both were still a "normal" age when they put it all together.

So forgetting whether someone is left or right handed for a minute, does what you're saying mean anything in determining who was a better overall pitcher when comparing say Koufax, who took several years to really develop as a pitcher, to Bob Feller, who literally seemed to walk off an Iowa farm and directly into into ball parks and blow away major league hitters from day one, while still a teenager?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I don't know how you would get that out of my post. In which I made no comparisons nor ranked Koufax. I was pointing out an interesting fact that may have kept him from becoming even greater (or greater for a longer period) Of course the minors could have also backfired, maybe he has to retire even earlier if he pitches more as a youngster, who knows?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I don't know how you would get that out of my post. In which I made no comparisons nor ranked Koufax. I was pointing out an interesting fact that may have kept him from becoming even greater (or greater for a longer period) Of course the minors could have also backfired, maybe he has to retire even earlier if he pitches more as a youngster, who knows?

Hey Scott,

My apologies, wasn't meant to disparage you or as any type of a put down. Also wasn't a comment for or against Koufax, just that was who you referenced in your post, and I just continued using the same reference. Your comment just got me thinking how players can more quickly or slowly develop at different ages and times, and merely wondered if that could have some impact on how good a player may be perceived as being by others. Was hoping to hear what you and others think, that was all.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Ah, my bad.

Obviously the longer you are good, the better your career looks so of course someone who is a success at 19 has an advantage over a guy who struggles until he's 24 and then puts it together.

Of course in the specific case you mentioned, Feller played the vast majority of his career against little to no African American competition. Would that absence alone have made Sandy more successful right from the start? Probably not enough to make a massive difference in people's opinions of him, but I think it would have to have an impact.

Interesting topics for thought/discussion

[Carter08]

Not appealing to this because his stats speak volumes but I would just like to add that I think it’s pretty amazing Sphanie served in World War II. And not just served but defended a key bridge and dealt with the Battle of the Bulge, earning a Purple Star for a significant shrapnel wound and a Bronze Star for bravery. Easy to dismiss him as an innings eater until you look at his stats and realize the guy flat out dominated. Multiple no hitters etc. And one of the coolest deliveries ever known!

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Of course in the specific case you mentioned, Feller played the vast majority of his career against little to no African American competition.

Ordinarily I would apologize for risking taking a thread off the rails, but after 871 posts on the main, unsolvable question, not in this case.

I have another element to ponder, and it is related. How much impact did it have on pitchers, in particular, to have been playing in their prime before integration?

It's easy to say the bats of Aaron, Mays, Frank and Jackie Robinson, etc. would've made a pitchers' job tougher, and their ERAs higher, but consider a guy like Gaylord Perry. Sure, he had to pitch against Aaron, Clemente, and Frank, but on the other hand, he was getting run support from Mays and McCovey, not to mention serious defensive assistance from Say Hey and Stretch.

Koufax benefited greatly from Maury Wills, Roseboro, and Tommy Davis, although he had to pitch to Frank, Henry, etc. Junior Gilliam saved his World Series Game 7 shutout in 1965 and Lou Johnson's homer was the run that won it.

My point is, when the color barrier came down, it strengthened the quality of MLB pretty much across the board. This hurt pitchers in the sense they had to face some good and great, previously barred, players. But they also got more offensive and defensive support. So, from the standpoint of a pitcher, does this make it a push?

To partially answer my own question, I think the color barrier helped the pitchers on the teams that took full advantage of integration (Dodgers, Giants, Indians, Braves) and hurt those that didn't (Red Sox, most notably.) It would really be frustrating to be a Red Sox pitcher in the 1950s and early 1960s, watching all these terrific Black players coming into MLB, but virtually none ending up on your team.