Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Tabe

This is not correct. MLB enlarged the strike zone for, what a coincidence, Sandy's best four seasons:

https://www.mlb.com/glossary/rules/strike-zone

Well that's a bit misleading isn't it? 8 of Koufax's 12 seasons he was subject to a smaller strike zone. And 4 of his 5 best K/9 seasons also were during that time with the smaller strike zone, NOT the larger strike zone as you state. What made Koufax so great in his later years wasn't his ability to strike people out, but rather his newfound ability to control the ball better and stop walking batters. His BB rate fell through the floor, but his strikeout rates were actually slightly better before he became the left arm of god. All of Lefty Grove's seasons had the same strike zone as Koufax's final 4 seasons.

Originally Posted by G1911

I have a feeling facts aren’t going to get in the way of a false narrative.

I see you're still pitching a tent in the Walmart parking lot. Do you need some water? Maybe a sandwich or two?

[earlywynnfan]

[QUOTE=Snowman;2164645


I see you're still pitching a tent in the Walmart parking lot. Do you need some water? Maybe a sandwich or two?[/QUOTE]

Great argument!

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Well that's a bit misleading isn't it? 8 of Koufax's 12 seasons he was subject to a smaller strike zone. And 4 of his 5 best K/9 seasons also were during that time with the smaller strike zone, NOT the larger strike zone as you state. What made Koufax so great in his later years wasn't his ability to strike people out, but rather his newfound ability to control the ball better and stop walking batters. His BB rate fell through the floor, but his strikeout rates were actually slightly better before he became the left arm of god. All of Lefty Grove's seasons had the same strike zone as Koufax's final 4 seasons.

You forgot to explain away the higher mound!

[mrreality68]

We Cannot argue against greatness

As all those discussed are Great just hard to determine the greatest lefty with the variations from era, mound heights, liveliness of the ball, dimensions of the park, etc.

So we are just nit picking to put our great at the top of the Greatness List and that is the fun of it.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I see you're still pitching a tent in the Walmart parking lot. Do you need some water? Maybe a sandwich or two?

This is what I’m talking about. I must be a homeless person because I can see you offer nothing but elementary fallacies. You are completely unable to engage with facts, form a coherent argument that makes any rational sense, or even simply not make appeals to your ego and self-professed but completely unsupported total authority.

[egri]

Originally Posted by G1911

This is what I’m talking about. I must be a homeless person because I can see you offer nothing but elementary fallacies. You are completely unable to engage with facts, form a coherent argument that makes any rational sense, or even simply not make appeals to your ego and self-professed but completely unsupported total authority.

I for one am shocked that a member who was banned from Blowout has done nothing but cause problems here.

[Touch'EmAll]

When analyzing Koufax, you just can't ignore the first 6 years of his career and only go by his later 6 year span. His first 6 years his W/L was 36-40 with ERA well over 4. - far, far away from the stuff of legendary greatness. During the first half of his career I wouldn't even pay money to see him pitch.

Now the second half of his career, yes, outstanding. Possibly even the best 6 year span of any pitcher ever.

Koufax career at home ERA 2.48, away 3.04
Grove career home ERA 3.04, away 3.05
Obviously, the home park benefited Koufax a whole lot.

One guy to pitch one game at the height of their career, Koufax might be your man. But overall value to a team for their career there is no way Koufax is the man.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by egri

I for one am shocked that a member who was banned from Blowout has done nothing but cause problems here.

I am also shocked. Shocked so many members are playing along with the silliness.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by G1911

This is what I’m talking about. I must be a homeless person because I can see you offer nothing but elementary fallacies. You are completely unable to engage with facts, form a coherent argument that makes any rational sense, or even simply not make appeals to your ego and self-professed but completely unsupported total authority.

Link?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Link?

https://www.letmegooglethat.com/?q=a...hority+fallacy

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Well that's a bit misleading isn't it? 8 of Koufax's 12 seasons he was subject to a smaller strike zone. And 4 of his 5 best K/9 seasons also were during that time with the smaller strike zone, NOT the larger strike zone as you state. What made Koufax so great in his later years wasn't his ability to strike people out, but rather his newfound ability to control the ball better and stop walking batters. His BB rate fell through the floor, but his strikeout rates were actually slightly better before he became the left arm of god. All of Lefty Grove's seasons had the same strike zone as Koufax's final 4 seasons.

Wait, his BB rate fell through the floor during the four years where the size of the strike zone was increased?!?! What a shock!

I didn't mention his K/9 rate in my post. There was nothing misleading at all about what I posted. You posted factually incorrect information. I corrected that and pointed out that the increased strike zone lined up with Sandy's four best years. Nothing misleading about that.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Wait, his BB rate fell through the floor during the four years where the size of the strike zone was increased?!?! What a shock!

I didn't mention his K/9 rate in my post. There was nothing misleading at all about what I posted. You posted factually incorrect information. I corrected that and pointed out that the increased strike zone lined up with Sandy's four best years. Nothing misleading about that.

No, you didn't mention his K/9 rate, but you should have. That's my point. You implied that he became better at striking batters out because they increased the strike zone in his final 4 years. But his K/9 rate actually went Down during that time, not up. The differences are explainable through some other engineered metrics, but I'll ignore that as I don't want to go chasing down another tangent.

The part of your post that is misleading is that you compared Lefty Grove with Sandy Koufax, then you said that Koufax benefited from them increasing his strike zone in his final 4 years. What you failed to mention is the fact that prior to them increasing his strike zone, they SHRANK it in 1950. When they expanded it in 1963, they reverted it back to where it was originally, back when Lefty Grove was pitching! Pretty important little detail you left out.

[Snowman]

As far as mound heights is concerned, yes that definitely needs to be accounted for. It's something I've never looked at in a predictive model though. It's never been a relevant factor for the problems I've needed to solve for. It will almost certainly make Koufax less god-like than his numbers would otherwise indicate. How much less god-like though? I don't know. It would be a fun question to answer. Maybe if I get some free time I'll calculate its effect.

[Tabe]

Now you're just making stuff up.

Originally Posted by Snowman

No, you didn't mention his K/9 rate, but you should have. That's my point. You implied that he became better at striking batters out because they increased the strike zone in his final 4 years.

I did no such thing. I said his four best years lined up with the increased strike zone. Didn't mention strikeouts at all. Or imply any connection to them.

Originally Posted by Snowman

The part of your post that is misleading is that you compared Lefty Grove with Sandy Koufax

No, I didn't. My post about the strike zone didn't mention Lefty Grove. You made the - again - factually incorrect assertion that Grove had a larger strike zone to work with than Sandy. I corrected that. Didn't mention Grove at all or make any comparison between the two.

Originally Posted by Snowman

What you failed to mention is the fact that prior to them increasing his strike zone, they SHRANK it in 1950. When they expanded it in 1963, they reverted it back to where it was originally, back when Lefty Grove was pitching! Pretty important little detail you left out.

It kinda goes without saying that, if they increased the size of the strike zone to be the same as Grove's, it was previously smaller, hence why I, you know, didn't say it.

[BobC]

Gentlemen (and Ladies if any are watching along),

It is all well and good to keep debating the OP's question forever, but it seems none of you still realize this is a multi-part question. And apparently none of you have yet to really address one of those extremely important parts, making it virtually impossible to ever get even close to a consensus agreement on what typically ends up being the main focus of these (I'll put it politely) civil discussions.

Everyone keeps going back and forth about the "who" part of the question, without having first agreed on the "what" part of the question. And in this particular case, the "what" part of the question is, what is the exact definition that constutes someone being the "greatest" at something, like being a left handed MLB pitcher. Without everyone agreeing on the "what" first, it makes arguing about the "who" pretty senseless, and in some instances, downright stupid.

And with no agreement on "what" exactly constitutes someone being the greatest at something, the "who" part of the question will likely have multiple correct answers, all dependent on differing points of view as to what the correct definition of "greatest" is.

Think of it this way. Two guys sit down at a standard checker board, pull out their pieces and start playing. Problem is, one guy has regular checker pieces and starts playing checkers, the other guy has chess pieces and thinks that is the game being played. And at the end of whatever the heck they ended up doing, they both claimed they were right and they were the winner. Unfortunately, they never agreed on the actual game and rules they were going to play by first. See the problem boys........................?

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by BobC

Gentlemen (and Ladies if any are watching along),

It is all well and good to keep debating the OP's question forever, but it seems none of you still realize this is a multi-part question. And apparently none of you have yet to really address one of those extremely important parts, making it virtually impossible to ever get even close to a consensus agreement on what typically ends up being the main focus of these (I'll put it politely) civil discussions.

Everyone keeps going back and forth about the "who" part of the question, without having first agreed on the "what" part of the question. And in this particular case, the "what" part of the question is, what is the exact definition that constutes someone being the "greatest" at something, like being a left handed MLB pitcher. Without everyone agreeing on the "what" first, it makes arguing about the "who" pretty senseless, and in some instances, downright stupid.

And with no agreement on "what" exactly constitutes someone being the greatest at something, the "who" part of the question will likely have multiple correct answers, all dependent on differing points of view as to what the correct definition of "greatest" is.

Think of it this way. Two guys sit down at a standard checker board, pull out their pieces and start playing. Problem is, one guy has regular checker pieces and starts playing checkers, the other guy has chess pieces and thinks that is the game being played. And at the end of whatever the heck they ended up doing, they both claimed they were right and they were the winner. Unfortunately, they never agreed on the actual game and rules they were going to play by first. See the problem boys........................?

Fair point. It’s the greatest left handed pitcher of all time. I think that opens arguments for longevity versus peak greatness to come into play. My personal view is we avoid the argument that any random left hander in the majors today might technically throw better than anyone else in history because of advanced training and development. It’s a fair argument but just not fun. In my view, the greatest lefty is clearly Spahn. But I am biased as hell. I just love that guy. Carlton, Grove and Koufax are certainly in the mix.

[G1911]

It’s been discussed several times, there isn’t a whole lot of genuine disagreement. We have a troll, people conflating personal favorite with best and doubling down and insisting they are the exact same thing, etc. There is not much actual disagreement on reasonable but differing standards of what greatness is. Some favor peak over longevity (Botha re very reasonable standards that not everyone is going to exactly agree on, nor should they) but the advanced stats lead to the same answer either way: Grove wins best 4 years, best 5 years, best 7 years, best 10 years, most total career value.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I corrected that and pointed out that the increased strike zone lined up with Sandy's four best years. Nothing misleading about that.

Sandy's best 4 years also lines up with expansion. Sandy was 14-2 vs. the Houston Colt .45s (1.90 ERA) and 17-2 vs. the Mets (1.44 ERA.) Those weak expansion clubs combined to give him 31 wins against just 4 losses. Take that away and Sandy is a lifetime 131-83 pitcher.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Did anyone else point out that it's not surprising that the OP picked a pitcher with a qualifier?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Sandy's best 4 years also lines up with expansion. Sandy was 14-2 vs. the Houston Colt .45s (1.90 ERA) and 17-2 vs. the Mets (1.44 ERA.) Those weak expansion clubs combined to give him 31 wins against just 4 losses. Take that away and Sandy is a lifetime 131-83 pitcher.

If I can prove to you that win/loss records mean absolutely jack shit, will you promise to stop posting them as your arguments for why player A is better or worse than player B?

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Snowman

If I can prove to you that win/loss records mean absolutely jack shit, will you promise to stop posting them as your arguments for why player A is better or worse than player B?

I have an idea: How about you actually prove something, instead of just saying you could or might or would if you had time or whatever.

In no particular order:
Why Grove's stats get worse when you take away the vacuum (and Koufax's get better)
Why Ryu is better than Spahn
Why Grove's era, and even more so, Ruth's era, are not worthy of inclusion