Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Randy led the league in ERA 4 times and in wins once. His post season record was just 7-9. He was a solid pitcher and deserves to be in the conversation, but I'll still take Grove, then Spahn of the lefties, and Walter for best overall.

If you lined up all the pitchers in the game in 1960, the guy who all the coaches and scouts would be drooling over, concerning raw ability and potential, wouldn't be Koufax, Drysdale, Spahn, Gibson, Pierce, Ford, Pascual, or any of those guys. It would've been a fellow named Steve Dalkowski.

You're cherry picking on Johnson. Don't forget 5 Cy Youngs, 3 2nds and a 3rd. Solid pitcher is just a bit of an understatement.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're cherry picking on Johnson. Don't forget 5 Cy Youngs, 3 2nds and a 3rd. Solid pitcher is just a bit of an understatement.

How many would Grove have won, had the award existed?

Since some want to discount or dismiss win-loss stats, is ERA to be considered the best gauge? Johnson, against his peers, led his league in that stat exactly 4 times in his 22 year career. Grove led his league in ERA 9 times in his 17 year career.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

How many would Grove have won, had the award existed?

Since some want to discount or dismiss win-loss stats, is ERA to be considered the best gauge? Johnson, against his peers, led his league in that stat exactly 4 times in his 22 year career. Grove led his league in ERA 9 times in his 17 year career.

Where did I say a single word against Grove? I ranked him first and have not backed off that.

[cjedmonton]

Originally Posted by Mark17

How many would Grove have won, had the award existed?

Since some want to discount or dismiss win-loss stats, is ERA to be considered the best gauge? Johnson, against his peers, led his league in that stat exactly 4 times in his 22 year career. Grove led his league in ERA 9 times in his 17 year career.

Has a “Cypothetical Young Award” thread or poll ever been tossed around here for pre-1956?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by cjedmonton

Has a “Cypothetical Young Award” thread or poll ever been tossed around here for pre-1956?

That's a neat idea. They have veterans committees to consider former ballplayers for exclusion in the Hall. There could likewise be some sort of committee to retroactively award Cy Young awards for pre- 1956 seasons.

It would be fun to pick a specific season and have a poll, as you suggest, to decide who the Cy winner would've/should've been.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Mark17

That's a neat idea. They have veterans committees to consider former ballplayers for exclusion in the Hall. There could likewise be some sort of committee to retroactively award Cy Young awards for pre- 1956 seasons.

It would be fun to pick a specific season and have a poll, as you suggest, to decide who the Cy winner would've/should've been.

I like it

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Mark17

How many would Grove have won, had the award existed?

Since some want to discount or dismiss win-loss stats, is ERA to be considered the best gauge? Johnson, against his peers, led his league in that stat exactly 4 times in his 22 year career. Grove led his league in ERA 9 times in his 17 year career.

No. Even ERA is highly subject to variance (read "luck"), which league they pitched in, and whether or not they pitched in a pitchers park.

Just go pick your favorite pitching seasons by your 10 random favorite pitchers. Then scroll down to the advanced stats section and look at the corresponding BABIPs for those seasons. I guarantee you those BABIPs will all be super low. In other words, those were the seasons they got the luckiest, not necessarily the seasons where they had the best stuff.

[John1941]

Originally Posted by Snowman

No. Even ERA is highly subject to variance (read "luck"), which league they pitched in, and whether or not they pitched in a pitchers park.

Just go pick your favorite pitching seasons by your 10 random favorite pitchers. Then scroll down to the advanced stats section and look at the corresponding BABIPs for those seasons. I guarantee you those BABIPs will all be super low. In other words, those were the seasons they got the luckiest, not necessarily the seasons where they had the best stuff.

That is true, but it's more to helpful to look at this individual case. Using ERA+ eliminates the bias of park effects. Here's Johnson and Grove (100 is average):

Career #Led League
Randy Johnson 135 6
Lefty Grove 148 9

Because FIP (Fielding Independent Pitching) only looks at strikeouts, walks, and home runs allowed, it eliminates the bias of BABIP.

Career #Led League
Randy Johnson 3.19 6
Lefty Grove 3.20 8


These two put Grove ahead.