Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

Snowman · #1 11-19-2021, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

I wouldn't give Johnson TOO MUCH credit for his mental makeup and toughness. We're talking about a guy who intentionally tanked half a season to force a trade out of Seattle.

Can we really blame him for that though? The Mariners are the worst franchise in all of sports. Not just the MLB. All major sports. As someone who grew up in Seattle, he gets a standing ovation from me for that move. The Mariners are the only Seattle sports team that I don't root for. They basically gave the fans a big middle finger for decades, so I gave one back.

mrreality68 · #2 11-19-2021, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Can we really blame him for that though? The Mariners are the worst franchise in all of sports. Not just the MLB. All major sports. As someone who grew up in Seattle, he gets a standing ovation from me for that move. The Mariners are the only Seattle sports team that I don't root for. They basically gave the fans a big middle finger for decades, so I gave one back.

+1 Agreed well said

BobbyStrawberry · #3 11-19-2021, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

The Mariners are the worst franchise in all of sports. Not just the MLB. All major sports.

You must not be familiar with the New York Knickerbockers.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 11-19-2021, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

You must not be familiar with the New York Knickerbockers.

The Orioles aren't exactly spending up to win for their fans.

BobbyStrawberry · #5 11-19-2021, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Orioles aren't exactly spending up to win for their fans.

Agreed, the Rockies are also horribly run. They won't spend enough to win, and refuse to tank to get better in the long term.

Snowman · #6 11-19-2021, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

You must not be familiar with the New York Knickerbockers.

Ahem...

The Mariners have never made it to the World Series. I'm not talking about winning it, I'm just talking about making it there. They are the only team in the entire MLB to have never made it.

They haven't even made the Playoffs one single time in the last 20 years. And in their entire 44 year history, they've made it 4 times. Yep, that's right, they failed to make the playoffs 40 times out of their 44 seasons. All this despite having one of the greatest center fielders of all time, THE greatest shortstop of all time (and please don't come back at me with some nonsense about Honus Wagner being better), and arguably the greatest pitcher of all time in Randy Johnson ALL ON THE SAME TEAM AT THE SAME TIME.

Meanwhile, the Knicks have made it to the NBA finals 8 times, winning it twice. They've also made the playoffs 43 times! Granted, they've been around for 75 years, but even if you cut their numbers in half, hell, cut them in a fourth, they're still miles better of a franchise than the Mariners.

When I said the Mariners were the worst franchise in sports, I meant that literally. You cannot find a worse performing team than the M's in any major sport in the United States. I'm sure there's some international soccer team somewhere from some island without potable water that miiiiight have a worse record than the Mariners, so I don't know if I can say with confidence that they are the worst team on the planet in any sport ever, but they're the worst team in any sport I'm aware of, and they're definitely the worst team in any major US sport and it's really not even close.

BobbyStrawberry · #7 11-19-2021, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Ahem...

The Mariners have never made it to the World Series. I'm not talking about winning it, I'm just talking about making it there. They are the only team in the entire MLB to have never made it.

They haven't even made the Playoffs one single time in the last 20 years. And in their entire 44 year history, they've made it 4 times. Yep, that's right, they failed to make the playoffs 40 times out of their 44 seasons. All this despite having one of the greatest center fielders of all time, THE greatest shortstop of all time (and please don't come back at me with some nonsense about Honus Wagner being better), and arguably the greatest pitcher of all time in Randy Johnson ALL ON THE SAME TEAM AT THE SAME TIME.

Meanwhile, the Knicks have made it to the NBA finals 8 times, winning it twice. They've also made the playoffs 43 times! Granted, they've been around for 75 years, but even if you cut their numbers in half, hell, cut them in a fourth, they're still miles better of a franchise than the Mariners.

When I said the Mariners were the worst franchise in sports, I meant that literally. You cannot find a worse performing team than the M's in any major sport in the United States. I'm sure there's some international soccer team somewhere from some island without potable water that miiiiight have a worse record than the Mariners, so I don't know if I can say with confidence that they are the worst team on the planet in any sport ever, but they're the worst team in any sport I'm aware of, and they're definitely the worst team in any major US sport and it's really not even close.

Sounds like we have different criteria for defining "worst franchise in all of sports"–ask any New York sports fan about Jim Dolan and watch them as they try in vain to suppress their outrage...

darwinbulldog · #8 11-19-2021, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Ahem...

The Mariners have never made it to the World Series. I'm not talking about winning it, I'm just talking about making it there. They are the only team in the entire MLB to have never made it.

They haven't even made the Playoffs one single time in the last 20 years. And in their entire 44 year history, they've made it 4 times. Yep, that's right, they failed to make the playoffs 40 times out of their 44 seasons. All this despite having one of the greatest center fielders of all time, THE greatest shortstop of all time (and please don't come back at me with some nonsense about Honus Wagner being better), and arguably the greatest pitcher of all time in Randy Johnson ALL ON THE SAME TEAM AT THE SAME TIME.

Meanwhile, the Knicks have made it to the NBA finals 8 times, winning it twice. They've also made the playoffs 43 times! Granted, they've been around for 75 years, but even if you cut their numbers in half, hell, cut them in a fourth, they're still miles better of a franchise than the Mariners.

When I said the Mariners were the worst franchise in sports, I meant that literally. You cannot find a worse performing team than the M's in any major sport in the United States. I'm sure there's some international soccer team somewhere from some island without potable water that miiiiight have a worse record than the Mariners, so I don't know if I can say with confidence that they are the worst team on the planet in any sport ever, but they're the worst team in any sport I'm aware of, and they're definitely the worst team in any major US sport and it's really not even close.

Mariners have won 47% of their games and 0 World Series games since 1977.

Padres have won 46% of their games and 1 World Series game since 1969.

I'd say it's quite close.

egri · #9 11-19-2021, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Mariners have won 47% of their games and 0 World Series games since 1977.

Padres have won 46% of their games and 1 World Series game since 1969.

I'd say it's quite close.

I wish The Founder had included the part where Ray Kroc used the PA system to chastise the Padres during a game.

Kzoo · #10 11-19-2021, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Mariners have won 47% of their games and 0 World Series games since 1977.

Padres have won 46% of their games and 1 World Series game since 1969.

I'd say it's quite close.

As bad as those 2 franchises might be, the Detroit Lions are not too far behind. Granted, they won a few NFL championships from the 1930's to 1950's, but they have only won 1 playoff game since 1957, and hold the current distinction as the oldest NFL franchise to never appear in a Super Bowl.

My Dad and I gave up on them a few years ago after wasting too many Sunday afternoons watching them create new and creative ways to lose games.

Season after season of watching them snatch defeat from the jaws of victory each week felt bad for our health.

We're much happier now.

Tabe · #11 11-19-2021, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Can we really blame him for that though? The Mariners are the worst franchise in all of sports. Not just the MLB. All major sports. As someone who grew up in Seattle, he gets a standing ovation from me for that move. The Mariners are the only Seattle sports team that I don't root for. They basically gave the fans a big middle finger for decades, so I gave one back.

I would say if you don't blame a guy for faking an injury and intentionally tanking games, it says a lot about your character let alone the character of the guy doing it.

Snowman · #12 11-19-2021, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

I would say if you don't blame a guy for faking an injury and intentionally tanking games, it says a lot about your character let alone the character of the guy doing it.

The idea that one needs to try to win at all costs while playing for a team that has made it abundantly clear that they intend to lose at all costs is pretty silly. Especially if he was being treated like shit in the process. Kudos to Randy Johnson for getting himself out of a bad situation.

Mark17 · #13 11-19-2021, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

The idea that one needs to try to win at all costs while playing for a team that has made it abundantly clear that they intend to lose at all costs is pretty silly. Especially if he was being treated like shit in the process. Kudos to Randy Johnson for getting himself out of a bad situation.

This comment has made me decide to not pay Snowman $500,000 to develop that statistical analysis he brags he could build. I think he'd be likely to take the money and give a half-@ss effort.

BobC · #14 11-19-2021, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

This comment has made me decide to not pay Snowman $500,000 to develop that statistical analysis he brags he could build. I think he'd be likely to take the money and give a half-@ss effort.

Half?!?!?!

I'm thinking you're being way to generous there. Maybe a third-@ss, or even a quarter-@ss effort?

Tabe · #15 11-19-2021, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

The idea that one needs to try to win at all costs while playing for a team that has made it abundantly clear that they intend to lose at all costs is pretty silly. Especially if he was being treated like shit in the process. Kudos to Randy Johnson for getting himself out of a bad situation.

When you're already in a hole, stop digging.

BobC · #16 11-19-2021, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

I would say if you don't blame a guy for faking an injury and intentionally tanking games, it says a lot about your character let alone the character of the guy doing it.

Excellent point, couldn't agree more.

And besides, Johnson did sign a contract to play, and got a lot of money for doing so. If he didn't like it, still honor the contract and leave when the contract is over, if they won't otherwise trade you, right? No one put a gun to his head to originally sign, did they? And I'm guessing he didn't decline to accept, or pay back, what he got paid for any thrown games either.

Snowman · #17 11-19-2021, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Excellent point, couldn't agree more.

And besides, Johnson did sign a contract to play, and got a lot of money for doing so. If he didn't like it, still honor the contract and leave when the contract is over, if they won't otherwise trade you, right? No one put a gun to his head to originally sign, did they? And I'm guessing he didn't decline to accept, or pay back, what he got paid for any thrown games either.

All of this talk is irrelevant though if it actually never happened. I, for one, have never even heard this rumor before about Randy Johnson throwing games or faking injuries. I'm just saying kudos to him for finding a way out of Seattle if he did. But if you look at his stats from the year he got traded, and even the year before that, he didn't appear to miss any time and his stats were in line with what he was doing in the years just prior to that, so I'm not so sure I buy it. If he were actually throwing games, that would show up in his stats, and if he were faking injuries, he would have been missing starts, no?

Ah, nevermind. Bad idea. Silly me thinking statistics can help answer questions. That's just like, my opinion, man.

Mark17 · #18 11-19-2021, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

All of this talk is irrelevant though if it actually never happened. I, for one, have never even heard this rumor before about Randy Johnson throwing games or faking injuries. I'm just saying kudos to him for finding a way out of Seattle if he did. But if you look at his stats from the year he got traded, and even the year before that, he didn't appear to miss any time and his stats were in line with what he was doing in the years just prior to that, so I'm not so sure I buy it. If he were actually throwing games, that would show up in his stats, and if he were faking injuries, he would have been missing starts, no?

Ah, nevermind. Bad idea. Silly me thinking statistics can help answer questions. That's just like, my opinion, man.

Tell me how Joe Jackson's stats in the 1919 World Series would clue you in to the fact he was on the gamblers' payroll, paid to lose.

Peter_Spaeth · #19 11-19-2021, 10:12 PM

Randy Johnson 1st 60 percent of 1998 ERA 4.33 (SEA)
Randy Johnson 2nd 40 percent of 1998 ERA 1.28 (HOU)

His WHIP went down by .3 from SEA to HOU

Maybe the DHs were killing him.

BobC · #20 11-19-2021, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Randy Johnson 1st 60 percent of 1998 ERA 4.33 (SEA)
Randy Johnson 2nd 40 percent of 1998 ERA 1.28 (HOU)

His WHIP went down by .3 from SEA to HOU

Maybe the DHs were killing him.

In all fairness, part of the reason for that big ERA drop could be from switching to a new league where none of the batters had seen him before. But those are still major league hitters, and as good as Johnson was, I can't ever see such a move creating that big of a change in his ERA in such a short of a period of time. Unless maybe he had some type of injury or something during the first part of that year that contributed to the higher ERA? But I'm not aware of any such thing. It doesn't look good for Johnson otherwise though.

BobC · #21 11-19-2021, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

Tell me how Joe Jackson's stats in the 1919 World Series would clue you in to the fact he was on the gamblers' payroll, paid to lose.

We've had threads on that in the past. Jackson got duped by listening to Comiskey who didn't help him when he tried to report it and asked what to do. But you're absolutely right about his play. Believe he had the highest BA of anyone in that WS, around .380 or so, and don't believe he commited any errors either. But any good statistician would have looked Jackson's stats up right away before accusing him of actually throwing a game, or so you'd think.

Carter08 · #22 11-19-2021, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

All of this talk is irrelevant though if it actually never happened. I, for one, have never even heard this rumor before about Randy Johnson throwing games or faking injuries. I'm just saying kudos to him for finding a way out of Seattle if he did. But if you look at his stats from the year he got traded, and even the year before that, he didn't appear to miss any time and his stats were in line with what he was doing in the years just prior to that, so I'm not so sure I buy it. If he were actually throwing games, that would show up in his stats, and if he were faking injuries, he would have been missing starts, no?

Ah, nevermind. Bad idea. Silly me thinking statistics can help answer questions. That's just like, my opinion, man.

You sound kind of like a dick sometimes. No one else does.

Snowman · #23 11-20-2021, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

You sound kind of like a dick sometimes. No one else does.

No one else does? LMFAO. What'd you do, filter out everyone's posts but mine? This entire thread has been others posting their opinions, them me providing my opinions, others shitting on me for having them, and then me throwing shit back.

And what about this very post of yours? Not a dickish post?

Snowman · #24 11-20-2021, 04:24 AM

I tried to find an article about Randy throwing games and faking injuries to get out of Seattle. I couldn't even find one. Sure seems like you guys are just making shit up. I did, however, find articles about him having back surgery. Twice.

His K/9 was 12.0 while he was in Seattle in 1998. It was 12.3 the year prior. His BB/9 was 3.4. It was 3.3 the year prior. And while, yes, his ERA was 4.33, his FIP was 3.35, almost a full run lower, and is also right in line with his FIP from the two seasons prior to that. Which means a full run per game of that 4.33 ERA was due to circumstances outside of his control.

I'd wager good money that this rumor about him throwing games and faking injuries (if it even was an actual rumor) came about because people who don't understand variance and sample sizes looked at the borderline irrelevant discrepancies between his ERA in Seattle and Houston that season and just pulled that explanation out of their ass because that's how stupid people attempt to explain away variance.

I'll say it again. Stop looking at wins, and stop looking at ERA if you want to evaluate pitching performance. I understand that this may be a difficult habit to break because it's been pounded into your heads for decades, but all it's doing is confusing you, whether you recognize it or not.

Carter08 · #25 11-20-2021, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

No one else does? LMFAO. What'd you do, filter out everyone's posts but mine? This entire thread has been others posting their opinions, them me providing my opinions, others shitting on me for having them, and then me throwing shit back.

And what about this very post of yours? Not a dickish post?

Your second point is valid. My apologies.

Tabe · #26 11-20-2021, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

But if you look at his stats from the year he got traded, and even the year before that, he didn't appear to miss any time and his stats were in line with what he was doing in the years just prior to that, .

His ERA was over 2 full runs higher in 1998 before the trade compared to 1997 but, sure, his stats were right in line.

Snowman · #27 11-20-2021, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

His ERA was over 2 full runs higher in 1998 before the trade compared to 1997 but, sure, his stats were right in line.

This is the type of nonsense I'm talking about. The fact that he posted an ERA of 2 runs higher than he did the year before in Seattle at the trade deadline literally means absolutely nothing. It tells you nothing about how well he was pitching without also looking at his other stats like FIP, BABIP, K/9 and BB/9. The data clearly shows that he simply got unlucky over the course of the first 2/3s of the season but was still every bit as dominant with the factors that were within his control.

mrreality68 · #28 11-20-2021, 08:19 AM

Beware of Stats.

1. that do not always mean anything
2. Different people value different stats differently
3. Some people use the Same Stats and read it differently to make their points

Mark17 · #29 11-19-2021, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Can we really blame him for that though? The Mariners are the worst franchise in all of sports. Not just the MLB. All major sports. As someone who grew up in Seattle, he gets a standing ovation from me for that move. The Mariners are the only Seattle sports team that I don't root for. They basically gave the fans a big middle finger for decades, so I gave one back.

If you take the paychecks, you owe 100% effort. Period.

BobC · #30 11-19-2021, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

If you take the paychecks, you owe 100% effort. Period.

Couldn't agree more!

And along those lines, can't remember if it was Dimaggio, Mantle, or some other player who said (and I'm paraphrasing here), that they always went out and played every game as hard/well as they could, even if they were hurting or slightly injured, because they knew some kid/person had paid for their ticket to come and watch him play that day. And that's the kind of person/player you put into a conversation of greatest of all time. It's that intangible human factor that statistics can't measure.

bnorth · #31 11-19-2021, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Couldn't agree more!

And along those lines, can't remember if it was Dimaggio, Mantle, or some other player who said (and I'm paraphrasing here), that they always went out and played every game as hard/well as they could, even if they were hurting or slightly injured, because they knew some kid/person had paid for their ticket to come and watch him play that day. And that's the kind of person/player you put into a conversation of greatest of all time. It's that intangible human factor that statistics can't measure.

My favorite give it all guys are Derek Jeter in baseball and Alonzo Mourning in basketball. They both seemed to give all they had all the time.

Randy being a quitter that year could be why he has such a small fan base and the reason his cards are dirt cheap.

BobC · #32 11-19-2021, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

My favorite give it all guys are Derek Jeter in baseball and Alonzo Mourning in basketball. They both seemed to give all they had all the time.

Randy being a quitter that year could be why he has such a small fan base and the reason his cards are dirt cheap.

Great point and comments!

The majority of players, especially the great ones, know one of the most important things they can ever do is play for their fans. And Jeter is a particularly great example. Heck, how many times in his career did he hurt himself trying to make a play he should have just let go?

Aquarian Sports Cards · #33 11-20-2021, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

My favorite give it all guys are Derek Jeter in baseball and Alonzo Mourning in basketball. They both seemed to give all they had all the time.

Randy being a quitter that year could be why he has such a small fan base and the reason his cards are dirt cheap.

Also as Wilt Chamberlain once said, "Nobody roots for Goliath"

egri · #34 11-19-2021, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

If you take the paychecks, you owe 100% effort. Period.

Part of the reason why less than a week after Manny Ramirez was traded, there were 'Manny who?' signs going up in Boston.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Lefty Grove = Lefty Groves... And Lefty's 1921 Tip Top Bread Card	leftygrove10	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	12	10-15-2019 01:55 AM
62 koufax ,59 mays,72 mays vg ends monday 8 est time sold ended	rjackson44	Live Auctions - Only 2-3 open, per member, at once.	3	05-22-2017 06:00 PM
Final Poll!! Vote of the all time worst Topps produced set	almostdone	Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980)	22	07-28-2015 08:55 PM
Long Time Lurker. First time poster. Crazy to gamble on this Gehrig?	wheels56	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	17	05-17-2015 05:25 AM
It's the most wonderful time of the year. Cobb/Edwards auction time!	iggyman	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	68	09-17-2013 01:42 AM