Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

Peter_Spaeth · #1 11-26-2021, 02:58 PM

I can't help you there, I'm just someone who twists words.

On that note, I still don't see how "best" objectively is an absolute, not relative, inquiry. It's a value judgment and everyone here can define it his own way. IMO a guy who shattered the world record in some track or field event decades ago and dominated the sport for a long time may still be the "best" of all time even if someone eventually shaved a fraction of a second or an inch off his record.

G1911 · #2 11-26-2021, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I can't help you there, I'm just someone who twists words.

Incidentally, on that note, inevitably people will obliterate all of Phelps' times. I would still say Phelps is the BEST (yep, say it again, BEST) swimmer of all time unless and until someone tops his record of RELATIVE success in the sport.

I agree, I don’t think the argument of modernity is invalid but I don’t think it’s the strongest one. Everything occurs in context, context is a key factor that must not be ignored (including time, place, home park, and a whole lot more). “All time” is clearly an indicator of more than one generation. The all time team should include all times, not in perfect proportion because of the random chance of greatness, but if long periods are absent from the top, one is probably not looking fairly at an era.

But the appeal to modernity, by simply looking at a timeline, quite obviously hurts Koufax who many of its adherents over the last year have tried to use it or a form of it to protect. And frankly, Johnson doesn’t need it to have an excellent argument for the top spot. Logical, fair, consistent arguments can be made for more than one candidate. Koufax is modern, Spahn is ancient isn’t one of them.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 11-26-2021, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

I agree, I don�t think the argument of modernity is invalid but I don�t think it�s the strongest one. Everything occurs in context, context is a key factor that must not be ignored (including time, place, home park, and a whole lot more). �All time� is clearly an indicator of more than one generation. The all time team should include all times, not in perfect proportion because of the random chance of greatness, but if long periods are absent from the top, one is probably not looking fairly at an era.

But the appeal to modernity, by simply looking at a timeline, quite obviously hurts Koufax who many of its adherents over the last year have tried to use it or a form of it to protect. And frankly, Johnson doesn�t need it to have an excellent argument for the top spot. Logical, fair, consistent arguments can be made for more than one candidate. Koufax is modern, Spahn is ancient isn�t one of them.

Notwithstanding our resident genius, one can't help but notice that nearly every list ranking baseball all-time greats that's ever been put together, including by statisticians, has Ruth and Cobb and Mays in the top 5 hitters/fielders and WALTER Johnson as the top pitcher. They must be lawyers who twist words too.

G1911 · #4 11-26-2021, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Notwithstanding our resident genius, one can't help but notice that nearly every list ranking baseball all-time greats that's ever been put together, including by statisticians, has Ruth and Cobb and Mays in the top 5 hitters/fielders and WALTER Johnson as the top pitcher. They must be lawyers who twist words too.

And that�s why the appeal to authority never works - another authority can always be found and then the �logic� an appeal to authority works on, that of unquestionable expertise, completely falls apart.

Just to make sure we hit 2,000 posts here, contextual best team, using the conventional definition of an all time team that has been in use for many decades:

RHP Walter Johnson (though I think Cy Young is right there due to his insane amount of effective innings)

LHP Lefty Grove

Relief Pitcher - Mariano, Hoyt Wilhelmina second but the gap here is big.

C - Berra, for his consistency but this is hard to pick. Bench is close,

1B - Gehrig, Pujols and Anson are close.

2B Collins, Joe Morgan is right there.

3B Schmidt, pretty wide margin I think.

SS Wagner, pretty wide margin I think.

LF Bonds or Williams, entirely dependent on steroid philosophy.

CF Mays, but it hurts to leave off Cobb.

RF Ruth, it�s not even close.

The best team if we ignore everyone before current times:
RHP: Clemens

LHP Johnson (I don�t see Kershaw passing him)

RP: Mariano

C: Ivan Rodriguez, but boy Piazza could hit and peak Posey and Mauer were fantastic

1B: Pujols, Thomas second

2B: Biggio, but there�s several close

3B: Chipper

SS: A-Rod

LF: Bonds

CF: Griffey, probably today. Will end up as Trout soon

RF: Gwynn? Walker? Ichiro? Would have to look up the numbers instead of using memory.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 11-26-2021, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

And that’s why the appeal to authority never works - another authority can always be found and then the ‘logic’ an appeal to authority works on, that of unquestionable expertise, completely falls apart.

Just to make sure we hit 2,000 posts here, contextual best team, using the conventional definition of an all time team that has been in use for many decades:

RHP Walter Johnson (though I think Cy Young is right there due to his insane amount of effective innings)

LHP Lefty Grove

Relief Pitcher - Mariano, Hoyt Wilhelmina second but the gap here is big.

C - Berra, for his consistency but this is hard to pick. Bench is close,

1B - Gehrig, Pujols and Anson are close.

2B Collins, Joe Morgan is right there.

3B Schmidt, pretty wide margin I think.

SS Wagner, pretty wide margin I think.

LF Bonds or Williams, entirely dependent on steroid philosophy.

CF Mays, but it hurts to leave off Cobb.

RF Ruth, it’s not even close.

The best team if we ignore everyone before current times:
RHP: Clemens

LHP Johnson (I don’t see Kershaw passing him)

RP: Mariano

C: Ivan Rodriguez, but boy Piazza could hit and peak Posey and Mauer were fantastic

1B: Pujols, Thomas second

2B: Biggio, but there’s several close

3B: Chipper

SS: A-Rod

LF: Bonds

CF: Griffey, probably today. Will end up as Trout soon

RF: Gwynn? Walker? Ichiro? Would have to look up the numbers instead of using memory.

Depending on whether you put him at 3b or ss and his games played at each are very close, I think ARod could compete for the all time team at either position, if you overlook the PED and his personality. He had some SERIOUS numbers. His stature also suffered from being paired with the beloved Jeter even though Jeter was far inferior.

Ricky · #6 11-26-2021, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

And that�s why the appeal to authority never works - another authority can always be found and then the �logic� an appeal to authority works on, that of unquestionable expertise, completely falls apart.

Just to make sure we hit 2,000 posts here, contextual best team, using the conventional definition of an all time team that has been in use for many decades:

RHP Walter Johnson (though I think Cy Young is right there due to his insane amount of effective innings)

LHP Lefty Grove

Relief Pitcher - Mariano, Hoyt Wilhelmina second but the gap here is big.

C - Berra, for his consistency but this is hard to pick. Bench is close,

1B - Gehrig, Pujols and Anson are close.

2B Collins, Joe Morgan is right there.

3B Schmidt, pretty wide margin I think.

SS Wagner, pretty wide margin I think.

LF Bonds or Williams, entirely dependent on steroid philosophy.

CF Mays, but it hurts to leave off Cobb.

RF Ruth, it�s not even close.

The best team if we ignore everyone before current times:
RHP: Clemens

LHP Johnson (I don�t see Kershaw passing him)

RP: Mariano

C: Ivan Rodriguez, but boy Piazza could hit and peak Posey and Mauer were fantastic

1B: Pujols, Thomas second

2B: Biggio, but there�s several close

3B: Chipper

SS: A-Rod

LF: Bonds

CF: Griffey, probably today. Will end up as Trout soon

RF: Gwynn? Walker? Ichiro? Would have to look up the numbers instead of using memory.

Hornsby at second?

Regarding Koufax and Spahn, I don�t think it�s a case where Spahn is ancient and that�s why Koufax supporters denigrate him. They obviously overlapped. It�s that Koufax dominated and Spahn never did.

BobC · #7 11-26-2021, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricky

Hornsby at second?

Regarding Koufax and Spahn, I don�t think it�s a case where Spahn is ancient and that�s why Koufax supporters denigrate him. They obviously overlapped. It�s that Koufax dominated and Spahn never did.

Depends on your definition of dominance though. Some may feel that having a winning record for as many years as Spahn did, leading his league in wins in 8 years (5 years in a row at one point), and having the most wins of any lefty all time (#6 all time overall), is a pretty dominant pitcher. Despite what many would say. And this with losing three prime years to WW II. Plus, he stayed around about 4 years too long, going 20-45 ove that time with an ERA in excess of 4.00. Just think if he somehow got the three early years back, and retired when he should have. Likely 400 wins (#3 all time overall), win Pct. well over .600, and an ERA under 3.00. He still won't get a lot of love though.

Carter08 · #8 11-26-2021, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Depends on your definition of dominance though. Some may feel that having a winning record for as many years as Spahn did, leading his league in wins in 8 years (5 years in a row at one point), and having the most wins of any lefty all time (#6 all time overall), is a pretty dominant pitcher. Despite what many would say. And this with losing three prime years to WW II. Plus, he stayed around about 4 years too long, going 20-45 ove that time with an ERA in excess of 4.00. Just think if he somehow got the three early years back, and retired when he should have. Likely 400 wins (#3 all time overall), win Pct. well over .600, and an ERA under 3.00. He still won't get a lot of love though.

Wins in baseball don�t matter. I�ve �learned� that.

Snowman · #9 11-26-2021, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Depends on your definition of dominance though. Some may feel that having a winning record for as many years as Spahn did, leading his league in wins in 8 years (5 years in a row at one point), and having the most wins of any lefty all time (#6 all time overall), is a pretty dominant pitcher. Despite what many would say. And this with losing three prime years to WW II. Plus, he stayed around about 4 years too long, going 20-45 ove that time with an ERA in excess of 4.00. Just think if he somehow got the three early years back, and retired when he should have. Likely 400 wins (#3 all time overall), win Pct. well over .600, and an ERA under 3.00. He still won't get a lot of love though.

Here you go again with "wins" attributed to a pitcher. Lol

(facepalm)

Carter08 · #10 11-26-2021, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

And that�s why the appeal to authority never works - another authority can always be found and then the �logic� an appeal to authority works on, that of unquestionable expertise, completely falls apart.

Just to make sure we hit 2,000 posts here, contextual best team, using the conventional definition of an all time team that has been in use for many decades:

RHP Walter Johnson (though I think Cy Young is right there due to his insane amount of effective innings)

LHP Lefty Grove

Relief Pitcher - Mariano, Hoyt Wilhelmina second but the gap here is big.

C - Berra, for his consistency but this is hard to pick. Bench is close,

1B - Gehrig, Pujols and Anson are close.

2B Collins, Joe Morgan is right there.

3B Schmidt, pretty wide margin I think.

SS Wagner, pretty wide margin I think.

LF Bonds or Williams, entirely dependent on steroid philosophy.

CF Mays, but it hurts to leave off Cobb.

RF Ruth, it�s not even close.

The best team if we ignore everyone before current times:
RHP: Clemens

LHP Johnson (I don�t see Kershaw passing him)

RP: Mariano

C: Ivan Rodriguez, but boy Piazza could hit and peak Posey and Mauer were fantastic

1B: Pujols, Thomas second

2B: Biggio, but there�s several close

3B: Chipper

SS: A-Rod

LF: Bonds

CF: Griffey, probably today. Will end up as Trout soon

RF: Gwynn? Walker? Ichiro? Would have to look up the numbers instead of using memory.

I like Berra getting his due here. I�m a Gary Carter fan and understand why Bench is so highly respect but I feel like Berra gets overlooked too often as just a funnyman. Guy could rake. He also looked 40 years old when he was 20. Love those kind of guys.

Peter_Spaeth · #11 11-26-2021, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

I like Berra getting his due here. I�m a Gary Carter fan and understand why Bench is so highly respect but I feel like Berra gets overlooked too often as just a funnyman. Guy could rake. He also looked 40 years old when he was 20. Love those kind of guys.

Snider looked 60.

Carter08 · #12 11-26-2021, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Snider looked 60.

He sure dude. Randy Johnson is actually another one. Was never young.

Mark17 · #13 11-26-2021, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Notwithstanding our resident genius, one can't help but notice that nearly every list ranking baseball all-time greats that's ever been put together, including by statisticians, has Ruth and Cobb and Mays in the top 5 hitters/fielders and WALTER Johnson as the top pitcher. They must be lawyers who twist words too.

And Wagner competes with Ripken.

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