Gil Hodges

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Agree the case for Rice was weak, although he did have 8 AS appearances and an MVP -- Cash 4 and none.

But those aren't number based criteria those are opinion based. By the numbers Cash and Mantle were both better choices than Maris for MVP in 1961. All-Star is a popularity contest.

If you do care for those numbers Hodges had 8 all-stars and 3 Gold gloves (which only started near the end of his career)

[Seven]

I think Hodges resume, as a player, person and manager speak for itself and he should get into the Hall of Fame. The Hall isn't perfect, it's far from it. I think once the floodgates opened with the Veterans committee becoming a thing, the "Small Hall" Mentality went out the window.

Really the barometer for a player being Hall of Fame worthy, should be the his contributions to the game, and how well he performed. Some will also argue that a players character should be a part of that equation. I flip flop on this part, but I can't fault someone for not voting for a player who was a detestable person, just like I can't fault someone for voting for someone because he was a great man who contributed a great deal, both on and off the field.

With Hodges, I see a player that was robbed of three years because of the War, had he had those three years, I think statistically speaking his Hall of Fame case would have been much better around the first time he retired. I think him leading the Miracle Mets to their World Series title, adds to his resume as a baseball professional.

[egri]

Originally Posted by Seven

With Hodges, I see a player that was robbed of three years because of the War, had he had those three years, I think statistically speaking his Hall of Fame case would have been much better around the first time he retired.

There is another way the war hurt him; he started smoking while in the Marines, and that contributed to his heart attacks, including the fatal one.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by egri

There is another way the war hurt him; he started smoking while in the Marines, and that contributed to his heart attacks, including the fatal one.

Tobacco was one of the few things that wasn't rationed I believe, I'm sure many people thought it would also take the edge off while out in the field. Shame how young he was when he died.

[G1911]

Personally, I don’t see a good argument World War II shortened his playing career.

In 1943 he had 3 plate appearances in the majors.

He misses 1944-1946.

In 1947, he plays in 28 games and bats under .200 with a 44 OPS+

In 1948, he’s the starting first baseman and plays a full season. He hits .249 and has an OPS+ of 82, which is truly absolutely horrific for a starting first baseman.


I suppose we could say if he’d spent more time in the minors he would have developed faster, but this is making a lot of assumptions, all of them extremely generous to Hodges. WWII hurt a lot of guys careers, but Hodges isn’t a great case of them.

[ClementeFanOh]

"We only care about the HOF because election typically affects card value",
comment by Exhibitman.

Uh, no, "we" don't- I actually care that it be based on merit and don't give a
rip how it affects card value. Not in that "we" group at all.

Trent King

[Kutcher55]

He will get in soon I think. And a lot of New Yorkers and others will attend. It will be a popular election.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

But those aren't number based criterion those are opinion based. By the numbers Cash and Mantle were both better choices than Maris for MVP in 1961. All-Star is a popularity contest.

If you do care for those numbers Hodges had 8 all-stars and 3 Gold gloves (which only started near the end of his career)

I wasn't justifying Rice, only comparing Rice to Cash. I don't mind Hodges at all, I just don't think he's a good case on the numbers.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I wasn't justifying Rice, only comparing Rice to Cash. I don't mind Hodges at all, I just don't think he's a good case on the numbers.

Put the numbers aside for a minute. If there ever was a case for why he never got in, surely it was his numbers as a player. But doesn't impact on the game, on the players, on the community make up for a .273 batting average? How did lesser-caliber players get in? I just hope he makes it this time. If he doesn't, in my mind, he likely never will.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Put the numbers aside for a minute. If there ever was a case for why he never got in, surely it was his numbers as a player. But doesn't impact on the game, on the players, on the community make up for a .273 batting average? How did lesser-caliber players get in? I just hope he makes it this time. If he doesn't, in my mind, he likely never will.

Well, he's being voted on as a player, so it seems to me his numbers as a player are first and foremost what matter. I'm not sure how one values those intangibles.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well, he's being voted on as a player, so it seems to me his numbers as a player are first and foremost what matter. I'm not sure how one values those intangibles.

I think it would be more than a little naive to think that the committee ignored Hodges' accomplishments (though they're actually pretty lacking other than 1969) as a manager.

[rjackson44]

Lots of gil cards for sale on ebay omg

[D. Bergin]

Interesting results. Surprised so many got in, but I'm happy for them all. I'm not really in the HOF should be a super exclusive club crowd.

Happy these guys, and by proxy, their families are finally recognized.

Little sad for Dick Allen. .912 Lifetime OPS, 156 OPS+. Those are eye-popping stats for a non-HOF'er. Missed by 1 vote. I think I'd swap out Oliva or maybe even Jim Kaat if it would get Allen in.

Always had a soft spot for Kaat though. I remember being amazed as a kid at his 16 Gold Gloves during his short stint with the Yankees (I know, I know, doesn't mean quite as much as a pitcher...unless of course you've had Jon Lester on your team for awhile). He's also one of my favorite baseball announcers of all-time.

Kaat is definitely a candidate to me, of taking a guys entire history in baseball as a consideration (Bill White anyone? another great ex-Yankee announcer LOL!, among other things).

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Tabe

I think it would be more than a little naive to think that the committee ignored Hodges' accomplishments (though they're actually pretty lacking other than 1969) as a manager.

I'm not sure how much they were lacking as a manager. He managed 2 teams, the crappy Senators and the mediocre Mets. If you look at the Senators progression under him, they made great strides every year. The Mets won 12 additional games in his first season with Seaver basically having an identical record from the year before (they did add Koosman). His last two years were solid and almost identical to the Cubs (another strong team from that era) but were up against some up and coming great teams like the Pirates (also the Reds in the opposite division). When you add this to the fact that he was the premier 1b of his era that won 3 gold gloves (would have been much more but they didn't start giving them out till 1957...almost the end of his career. He was long overdue in my book and glad he's finally in.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by mr2686

I'm not sure how much they were lacking as a manager. He managed 2 teams, the crappy Senators and the mediocre Mets. If you look at the Senators progression under him, they made great strides every year. The Mets won 12 additional games in his first season with Seaver basically having an identical record from the year before (they did add Koosman). His last two years were solid and almost identical to the Cubs (another strong team from that era) but were up against some up and coming great teams like the Pirates (also the Reds in the opposite division). When you add this to the fact that he was the premier 1b of his era that won 3 gold gloves (would have been much more but they didn't start giving them out till 1957...almost the end of his career. He was long overdue in my book and glad he's finally in.

He was a manager for 9 seasons and won 84+ games once.

Yes, the Senators improved under his tenure but not "great strides every year". From 1965 to 1966, they went up 1 win. 1966 to 1967, they went up 5 wins. Full credit to him for taking over a team that was completely horrible and getting them up to semi-respectable.

Hodges deserves a lot of credit for taking the Mets to the World Series in 1969. But, if that's the case, he deserves a lot of blame for them dropping off 17 wins the next year and not improving the year after that.

None of this is to say Hodges was a bad manager but let's be honest - one World Series title and a record 93 games under .500 isn't exactly amazing. I mean, Cito Gaston won 2 titles, won 84+ games four times, and finished over .500 but nobody lists him as a managerial great.

And, again, none of this matters - Hodges was inducted as a player. So, theoretically, his managerial career shouldn't be considered at all.