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  #1  
Old 12-08-2021, 08:06 PM
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Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
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Posts: 34,281
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Guess who.

Hall of Fame Statistics
Black Ink
Batting - 4 (532), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink
Batting - 38 (821), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 7 (1622), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 30 (342), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Catcher (13th):
46.8 career WAR | 35.0 7yr-peak WAR | 40.9 JAWS | 4.9 WAR/162
Average HOF C (out of 16):
53.8 career WAR | 34.8 7yr-peak WAR | 44.3 JAWS | 4.7 WAR/162
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  #2  
Old 12-08-2021, 08:19 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
Gr.eg McCl.@y
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 7,501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Guess who.

Hall of Fame Statistics
Black Ink
Batting - 4 (532), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink
Batting - 38 (821), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 7 (1622), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 30 (342), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Catcher (13th):
46.8 career WAR | 35.0 7yr-peak WAR | 40.9 JAWS | 4.9 WAR/162
Average HOF C (out of 16):
53.8 career WAR | 34.8 7yr-peak WAR | 44.3 JAWS | 4.7 WAR/162
A catcher WAR loves and traditional stats don’t and scored bad on the Hall stats - Gene Tenace? Is he really that high in the catcher list foe JAWS? Great example
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  #3  
Old 12-08-2021, 08:29 PM
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Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
A catcher WAR loves and traditional stats don’t and scored bad on the Hall stats - Gene Tenace? Is he really that high in the catcher list foe JAWS? Great example
Yep.
__________________
Four phrases I have coined that sum up today's hobby:
No consequences.
Stuff trumps all.
The flip is the commoodity.
Animal Farm grading.
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  #4  
Old 12-08-2021, 08:31 PM
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Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
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Grich LOLOL.

Hall of Fame Statistics
Black Ink
Batting - 8 (356), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink
Batting - 40 (785), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 43 (506), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 32 (286), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Second Base (8th):
71.0 career WAR | 46.4 7yr-peak WAR | 58.7 JAWS | 5.7 WAR/162
Average HOF 2B (out of 20):
__________________
Four phrases I have coined that sum up today's hobby:
No consequences.
Stuff trumps all.
The flip is the commoodity.
Animal Farm grading.
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  #5  
Old 12-08-2021, 08:50 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
Gr.eg McCl.@y
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 7,501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Grich LOLOL.

Hall of Fame Statistics
Black Ink
Batting - 8 (356), Average HOFer ≈ 27
Gray Ink
Batting - 40 (785), Average HOFer ≈ 144
Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 43 (506), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 32 (286), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Second Base (8th):
71.0 career WAR | 46.4 7yr-peak WAR | 58.7 JAWS | 5.7 WAR/162
Average HOF 2B (out of 20):
Grich is a sabrmetric favorite now, but I just don’t see it. #8 2B, just don’t see it. He was a fine player, but that’s it.
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  #6  
Old 12-08-2021, 09:23 PM
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Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
Grich is a sabrmetric favorite now, but I just don’t see it. #8 2B, just don’t see it. He was a fine player, but that’s it.
He ranks ahead of Jackie, Frisch, Alomar, Sandberg, and Biggio, among others. OK.
__________________
Four phrases I have coined that sum up today's hobby:
No consequences.
Stuff trumps all.
The flip is the commoodity.
Animal Farm grading.
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  #7  
Old 12-08-2021, 10:01 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
Gr.eg McCl.@y
 
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
He ranks ahead of Jackie, Frisch, Alomar, Sandberg, and Biggio, among others. OK.
He played far, far less than some of those guys too. Frisch barely climbs above using straight WAR.

WAR putting Joe Gordon higher than Jeff Kent, in far less games, is another 2B surprise, playing with the list.

It’s an absurd claim or I’ve really underrated Tony Phillips. He’s some how top 25.
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  #8  
Old 12-08-2021, 10:42 PM
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Tabe Tabe is offline
Chris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
Grich is a sabrmetric favorite now, but I just don’t see it. #8 2B, just don’t see it. He was a fine player, but that’s it.
Grich scores so high for two reasons: 1) he walked a lot, which WAR vastly overrates; 2) he played in era with not many good 2B

At the end of the day, .266 with 15 homers a year isn't very impressive whatever WAR might say.
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  #9  
Old 12-09-2021, 07:19 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
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People are forgetting that WAR compares you to your contemporaries at the same position. What it is telling us is who was the best of a given era. It's a bit mediocre for comparing across eras because if your contemporaries are weak you come out looking strong. If your contemporaries are strong you look average. Kinda what makes Tenace and Reuschel so interesting they both played in an era with strong competition at their positions, making their WAR, theoretically, even more impressive. While I think Grich is underrated it is tough to name a second basemen of his era who hit worth a damn. Davey Lopes (who WAR also likes, though not as much) and Frank White (who is almost the exact same player as Mazeroski minus a WS clinching HR) come to mind as his stiffest competition after the best of the era Joe Morgan.

I am not a fan of the grey ink/black ink stuff because it DOESN'T take position into account. For example catchers who lead the league in hitting are a helluva lot rarer than outfielders who do, yet the ink counts don't factor that in.
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Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 12-09-2021 at 07:21 AM.
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