t205 vs t206...Which Do You Like Best?

G1911 · #1 12-19-2021, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

You can love T206s all you want, but the T205 cards are truly the forerunner and very first appearance/example of what we think of as modern baseball cards today, in regards to including player information and statistics. In fact, it could be argued that T205s were also the model for all other modern cards for all other sports that now include player and statistical information as well.

Do we know T205�s first cards preceded T201? T201 doesn�t have the write ups but it does have the stats. I don�t know the answer here, they are probably very close.

As for all sports in general, T205 wasn�t the first. There are some British sets with write ups of athletes that pre date it, there are some cabinet cards that aren�t really a full set, but even without them, T205 isn�t the first American sports card set with bios or stats. T218 (Q2 1910 for series 1) and T220 (late 1910) both precede it. The boxers include a write up and usually a list of fight results, the track athletes and swimmers a write up.

In the late 1880�s the N269 set included a biography of card back of all 50 pugilists, but not statistics.

Not saying these are the first either, can anyone think of earlier?

atx840 · #2 12-19-2021, 12:25 PM

I like both but early on in my collecting days I gravitated more towards the T206s as I liked how bright and bold the colors were.

Later on I became hooked on the rarity of tough backs, combinations and the many print errors out there.

oldphil · #3 12-19-2021, 12:43 PM

Hi,
My recent acquisition indicates the way I�m leaning. Thanks Tim!

jingram058 · #4 12-19-2021, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldphil

Hi,
My recent acquisition indicates the way I�m leaning. Thanks Tim!

Is that a custom frame, or a size that is readily available?

Thanks!

oldphil · #5 12-19-2021, 01:38 PM

James,
The piece was framed when it arrived. The outside dimensions of the frame are 19.5� by 32.5�. Hope this helps.

jingram058 · #6 12-19-2021, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldphil

James,
The piece was framed when it arrived. The outside dimensions of the frame are 19.5� by 32.5�. Hope this helps.

I thought it was large, but it's even bigger than I thought. Thanks!

BobC · #7 12-19-2021, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Do we know T205�s first cards preceded T201? T201 doesn�t have the write ups but it does have the stats. I don�t know the answer here, they are probably very close.

As for all sports in general, T205 wasn�t the first. There are some British sets with write ups of athletes that pre date it, there are some cabinet cards that aren�t really a full set, but even without them, T205 isn�t the first American sports card set with bios or stats. T218 (Q2 1910 for series 1) and T220 (late 1910) both precede it. The boxers include a write up and usually a list of fight results, the track athletes and swimmers a write up.

In the late 1880�s the N269 set included a biography of card back of all 50 pugilists, but not statistics.

Not saying these are the first either, can anyone think of earlier?

Don't disagree at all, but was thinking of the combining of the bios AND stats as what was a precursor of modern cards, and why they may be more historically significant that way. The T218 and T220 sets you referenced include athletes from multiple other sports, such as golf, boxing, track and field, and so on. And while some of these cards do include references to some fight results and such, my T205 reference was also referring to the way the stats were formatted as well, where they show annual stats of the player for past seasons, listed chronologically by year. Which is exactly how modern cards tend to be portrayed for the major U.S. sports of baseball, football, basketball, and hockey. I didn't think I'd have to expand my explanation as the listing of some fight results on the back of a boxing card doesn't really correlate to modern sports cards and how the seasonal stats of players are shown, along with their bio information. But if you really think those boxing cards were the examples and forerunners used in the creation of modern U.S. cards for major sports and how a player's stats are shown and listed, be my guest. To my eye though, you're trying to fit a round peg into a square hole, and using a sport that doesn't exactly correlate to modern sports that have huge issues of modern cards. I know they still produce boxing cards today, but they are certainly nowhere near as popular, nor produced in quantities evenly remotely close to the volume of cards produced annually for the more popular and mainstream sports. And though not all-inclusive, I did a quick search of some modern boxing cards and didn't really see anything like the listed fights on some T218 cards. So if those T218 cards aren't really the inspiration for design and stat reporting on modern boxing cards, I would seriously doubt they were a forerunner and precursor for stat reporting on other modern major sport cards.

Now if there does somehow turn out to be another set of earlier, major sports cards than the T205 cards that list bios and statistics like they do on modern major sport cards, I'll be surprised. But the fact that we have to ask others for input and help in discovering if any such earlier sets exists underscores how rare and obscure such a set must be. And to me at least, would make such other set(s) all the more unlikely to be a model and inspiration for how stats are portrayed and shown on most modern major sport cards today.

G1911 · #8 12-19-2021, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Don't disagree at all, but was thinking of the combining of the bios AND stats as what was a precursor of modern cards, and why they may be more historically significant that way. The T218 and T220 sets you referenced include athletes from multiple other sports, such as golf, boxing, track and field, and so on. And while some of these cards do include references to some fight results and such, my T205 reference was also referring to the way the stats were formatted as well, where they show annual stats of the player for past seasons, listed chronologically by year. Which is exactly how modern cards tend to be portrayed for the major U.S. sports of baseball, football, basketball, and hockey. I didn't think I'd have to expand my explanation as the listing of some fight results on the back of a boxing card doesn't really correlate to modern sports cards and how the seasonal stats of players are shown, along with their bio information. But if you really think those boxing cards were the examples and forerunners used in the creation of modern U.S. cards for major sports and how a player's stats are shown and listed, be my guest. To my eye though, you're trying to fit a round peg into a square hole, and using a sport that doesn't exactly correlate to modern sports that have huge issues of modern cards. I know they still produce boxing cards today, but they are certainly nowhere near as popular, nor produced in quantities evenly remotely close to the volume of cards produced annually for the more popular and mainstream sports. And though not all-inclusive, I did a quick search of some modern boxing cards and didn't really see anything like the listed fights on some T218 cards. So if those T218 cards aren't really the inspiration for design and stat reporting on modern boxing cards, I would seriously doubt they were a forerunner and precursor for stat reporting on other modern major sport cards.

Now if there does somehow turn out to be another set of earlier, major sports cards than the T205 cards that list bios and statistics like they do on modern major sport cards, I'll be surprised. But the fact that we have to ask others for input and help in discovering if any such earlier sets exists underscores how rare and obscure such a set must be. And to me at least, would make such other set(s) all the more unlikely to be a model and inspiration for how stats are portrayed and shown on most modern major sport cards today.

Some of the T220�s list annual statistics, chronologically by year. You said all sports, thus the relative unpopularity of boxing seems to have nothing to do with what was originally posited. Besides baseball, different sports were popular a century ago.

If it�s about modern inspiration, that probably has nothing to do with T205�s whatsoever either. That probably goes back to 1952 Topps at the earliest. Most modern designs are not copying old styles at all anyways, but drawing on recent designs, except for the copy/paste heritage type sets. T205�s are not the model for 2021 Topps backs.

If asking others for input on questions of firsts is a problem, because a set might not be known by all, well, okay! There�s little point in anyone ever discussing anything at all by that logic.

BobC · #9 12-19-2021, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Some of the T220�s list annual statistics, chronologically by year. You said all sports, thus the relative unpopularity of boxing seems to have nothing to do with what was originally posited. Besides baseball, different sports were popular a century ago.

If it�s about modern inspiration, that probably has nothing to do with T205�s whatsoever either. That probably goes back to 1952 Topps at the earliest. Most modern designs are not copying old styles at all anyways, but drawing on recent designs, except for the copy/paste heritage type sets. T205�s are not the model for 2021 Topps backs.

If asking others for input on questions of firsts is a problem, because a set might not be known by all, well, okay! There�s little point in anyone ever discussing anything at all by that logic.

I never expected or anticipated someone to try and bring up boxing, golf cards, or the like because those are not comparable to sports where you have seasons and stats shown as on the backs of cards like the T205s, and how similar they are to modern cards for baseball and other major team sports. I should know there are always going to be some who twist things for their own purposes or meanings so as to criticize others. Boxing's popularity now or then has nothing to do with this as listing the results of several fights is totally different than listing a player's annual stats in a season by season format, as shown on the T205 cards, which is what I was referring to. I don't think I've ever seen a modern baseball card issue that shows how all the players did game by game, which is what these boxing card stats you referenced do, show how the fighter performed event by event. Which as far as I'm concerned shows you either don't understand my point at all, or are just possibly trying to be a troll?

To me the idea that the T205 cards were the first ever to be like how they show bio info and annual statistics on cards today was one of the things that attracted me to them. Were they the true inspiration for how modern cards display a player's annual stats, maybe, maybe not, who really knows for sure? You citing 1952 Topps as the inspiration for modern cards is not accurate. I think of 1952 Topps as the start of modern cards, whose design may have been inspired by things like what was shown on T205 cards. That was the reference I was making and referring to. You want to call me out on what your differing thoughts and opinions are on what constitutes the way modern cards are described, go right ahead. It certainly doesn't make you right or me wrong. I can't, nor would I ever try to, prove that the way season stats were portrayed on the backs of T205 cards was the true inspiration for how they ended up being shown on '52 Topps cards, but you can't prove to me they weren't either. And since I'm not aware of an earlier set that ever showed seasonal player stats prior to how it was shown on the T205s, the T205s could have very well been an influence or even indirect inspiration to the '52 Topps production after all. I'm assuming that whenever people designing sports cards go to produce them that they often study and examine previous major card issues of others to possibly glean ideas and insights for their own new card issue (like listing player stats season by season), and to not erroneously copy other designs without full knowledge and intent in doing so. And as for asking others for information on earlier examples of sets, quit trying to be snarky by somehow inferring that I'm then making that out to be problem, which is exactly what you're trying to do. You are, or at least should be, better than that. I am pretty familiar with all the main baseball sets listed in the old SCD catalogs over the years, and am fairly confident that there isn't going to be any earlier baseball card issues that show individual player season's stats like they do on the T205s, along with player bios. But I also know that I clearly don't know everything (and in fact know very little), and am well aware there could be some weird, obscure, or only recently discovered set out there I've never heard of before that does have some similar seasonal player stats and bios on the back. But if there is, I think it fair to speculate that it is so rare and obscure, or possibly even unknown at the time, that the people designing the '52 Topps set (Sy Berger right?) wouldn't have been aware of and/or used it for potential design and layout ideas like they would have with a much more well known and popular set like the T205s. It is no problem, just something that makes logical common sense if some weird and obscure earlier issue does in fact exist, and contrary to what you're trying to say by twisting my words and meanings into what I never intended.

Rhotchkiss · #10 12-19-2021, 07:02 PM

T205's are very pretty indeed. Great looking cards. But T206 is the Granddaddy of all sets. It is the Monster. Its has the Wagner. It has the backs and well over 5000+ combinations. In my opinion, nothing, and I mean NO sports cards set, beats T206. And these guys all agree!

skelly423 · #11 12-19-2021, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

T205's are very pretty indeed. Great looking cards. But T206 is the Granddaddy of all sets. It is the Monster. Its has the Wagner. It has the backs and well over 5000+ combinations. In my opinion, nothing, and I mean NO sports cards set, beats T206. And these guys all agree!

Nothing like bringing the nuclear weapons to a knife fight. What a collection you�ve got

JimC · #12 12-19-2021, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skelly423

Nothing like bringing the nuclear weapons to a knife fight. What a collection you�ve got

Right??

Rhotchkiss · #13 12-20-2021, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skelly423

Nothing like bringing the nuclear weapons to a knife fight. What a collection you�ve got

Lol, thanks. But David makes a good point too. Both sets are pretty awesome.

tedzan · #14 12-20-2021, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

T205's are very pretty indeed. Great looking cards. But T206 is the Granddaddy of all sets. It is the Monster. Its has the Wagner. It has the backs and well over 5000+ combinations. In my opinion, nothing, and I mean NO sports cards set, beats T206. And these guys all agree!

DITTO....to what Ryan said.

I have put together 5 different T206 sets since 1981. And, only one T205 set, because the T205 cards just don't have the "charm" that the T206 cards do.
These images are crisp, and there is something magical about them.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

drcy · #15 12-20-2021, 08:52 PM

I think the T206 is the greatest, plus my favorite, set ever made.

However, one can collect both plus other issues.

G1911 · #16 12-20-2021, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

I never expected or anticipated someone to try and bring up boxing, golf cards, or the like because those are not comparable to sports where you have seasons and stats shown as on the backs of cards like the T205s, and how similar they are to modern cards for baseball and other major team sports. I should know there are always going to be some who twist things for their own purposes or meanings so as to criticize others. Boxing's popularity now or then has nothing to do with this as listing the results of several fights is totally different than listing a player's annual stats in a season by season format, as shown on the T205 cards, which is what I was referring to. I don't think I've ever seen a modern baseball card issue that shows how all the players did game by game, which is what these boxing card stats you referenced do, show how the fighter performed event by event. Which as far as I'm concerned shows you either don't understand my point at all, or are just possibly trying to be a troll?

To me the idea that the T205 cards were the first ever to be like how they show bio info and annual statistics on cards today was one of the things that attracted me to them. Were they the true inspiration for how modern cards display a player's annual stats, maybe, maybe not, who really knows for sure? You citing 1952 Topps as the inspiration for modern cards is not accurate. I think of 1952 Topps as the start of modern cards, whose design may have been inspired by things like what was shown on T205 cards. That was the reference I was making and referring to. You want to call me out on what your differing thoughts and opinions are on what constitutes the way modern cards are described, go right ahead. It certainly doesn't make you right or me wrong. I can't, nor would I ever try to, prove that the way season stats were portrayed on the backs of T205 cards was the true inspiration for how they ended up being shown on '52 Topps cards, but you can't prove to me they weren't either. And since I'm not aware of an earlier set that ever showed seasonal player stats prior to how it was shown on the T205s, the T205s could have very well been an influence or even indirect inspiration to the '52 Topps production after all. I'm assuming that whenever people designing sports cards go to produce them that they often study and examine previous major card issues of others to possibly glean ideas and insights for their own new card issue (like listing player stats season by season), and to not erroneously copy other designs without full knowledge and intent in doing so. And as for asking others for information on earlier examples of sets, quit trying to be snarky by somehow inferring that I'm then making that out to be problem, which is exactly what you're trying to do. You are, or at least should be, better than that. I am pretty familiar with all the main baseball sets listed in the old SCD catalogs over the years, and am fairly confident that there isn't going to be any earlier baseball card issues that show individual player season's stats like they do on the T205s, along with player bios. But I also know that I clearly don't know everything (and in fact know very little), and am well aware there could be some weird, obscure, or only recently discovered set out there I've never heard of before that does have some similar seasonal player stats and bios on the back. But if there is, I think it fair to speculate that it is so rare and obscure, or possibly even unknown at the time, that the people designing the '52 Topps set (Sy Berger right?) wouldn't have been aware of and/or used it for potential design and layout ideas like they would have with a much more well known and popular set like the T205s. It is no problem, just something that makes logical common sense if some weird and obscure earlier issue does in fact exist, and contrary to what you're trying to say by twisting my words and meanings into what I never intended.

Annual stats in a season format. Not a weird or obscure issue, it is one of the more common T issues made by the exact same company.

Still haven't seen evidence the earliest cards of T205 precedes T201; I'm not sure which came first. If you don't like it, that's fine. You can write as many paragraphs as you want about how pointing out earlier examples is trolling, asking others for their opinions shows the point is obscure and insist modern cards are using T205 as inspiration for their back designs. Enjoy that. I'm really only interested in evidence of what the first stat back sets were, both for baseball and for sports in general. We go back to the 1880's with Cabinets, but those with those backs generally weren't full sets. We have British sets and some N sets using the write up element, and some other T sets using both. T205 isn't the first for sports; I'm unsure if it is for Baseball.

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